BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
 |
| 31 May 2012 09:23 PM |
|
Completed ICF construction with full brick exterior. Hired what I thought was a very competent waterfurnace installation company. Paid a boatload ($40k) for a system that wont cool the house down. It was just over 90 deg and we cant get the house to hold 72 during the day, can't get it down to 68 to sleep at night until at least 1am. The unit runs non-stop both stages 24/7. The installer had their best tech in today. It was 85 degrees outsie and I cant even get down to 72 inside. The tech told me that "the unit is performing to spec" When I asked him why it won't cool he said "these units aren't made to hold temps less than 75 inside". When I asked himwhat I was going to do when it was over 95 every day for 3 weeks straight in August he told me to call the owner.
I am in the upstate of south carolina and need a resource to evaluate the system and figure out what needs to be done. Recommendations on competent engineers to evaluate the system are welcome.
Waterfurnace wouldn't talk to me about the problem. The girl mumbled something about "litigation".
Thanks in advance |
|
|
|
|
|
|
decafdrinker
Basic Member
Posts:420
|
| 31 May 2012 10:02 PM |
|
BrianPK,
It's essential that you look at the thread called "Problems with your heat pump? Start here."
It should be at the top on the first page. Please try to answer as many questions as possible in your next post.
The community of support needs a lot more info than you gave so far, esp load calcs, temp at registers, tonnage of system, loop depths, etc. There are several things that could be the cause, some serious, some not, but we need a lot more data. |
|
|
|
|
engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
|
| 31 May 2012 11:13 PM |
|
Ditto Stu's recommendation.
Start with "start here" and we'll take it from there. Several of us install geo heat pumps in climates similar to yours...it can be made right.
I install WaterFurnace systems near Jax, FL and have one in my ICF home. Give us the skinny and we'll try to help. |
|
Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
|
|
|
WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
|
| 01 Jun 2012 04:21 PM |
|
BrianPK,
According to our information, you contacted our Consumer Relations staff requesting technical support. For liability reasons we are unable to provide technical support to homeowners.
When we spoke to you it was our understanding that you had not been in contact with your contractor at that time. Without additional information, such as pressures, temperatures, etc., it is very difficult to determine what the issue might be. We understand your concerns and appreciate your position; unfortunately, we did not have enough information when you contacted us. We are more than happy to work with you and your contractor. If your contractor is unable to find a resolution, please have them contact our technical support staff for further assistance.
|
|
|
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 01 Jun 2012 04:56 PM |
|
Thank you to all who have replied so far. I am going to assemble all of the pertinent information in the "10 items" list this weekend.
The original contractor IS LOOKING AT THE PROBLEM AND HAS ASKED ME TO TRY SOME EXPERIMENTATION WITH THE EQUIPMENT. I am going to proceed on this path so that he may continue to look for resolution of the problem.
As to the operating status of the equipment, (waterfurnace) I was told that "it is operating within design parameters" by a qualified technician.
Stay tuned, things are either going to go really good or really bad from here on in. Fortunately a cool weekend is predicted for Upstate SC. |
|
|
|
|
geodude
New Member
Posts:58
|
| 01 Jun 2012 09:51 PM |
|
Posted By BrianPK on 31 May 2012 09:23 PM
The tech told me that "the unit is performing to spec" When I asked him why it won't cool he said "these units aren't made to hold temps less than 75 inside".
this guy is clueless! |
|
|
|
|
engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
|
| 02 Jun 2012 12:22 AM |
|
Look before you leap...
The unit could well be performing to spec, but it may be undersized for the home it cools or the home has issues that prevent it from responding according to design ( excessive air leaks, missing insulation, to name a couple possible faults)
75*F is a code-required summer cooling inside design setpoint; in other words, maintaining a 75*F interior is the basis for cooling load calculation.
Given sufficient and accurate information we WILL identify / solve the problem at hand, but that process is not aided by blanket accusations of ineptitude from afar. |
|
Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
|
|
|
geodude
New Member
Posts:58
|
| 02 Jun 2012 09:42 AM |
|
Sometimes identifying who is inept, even with a blanket statement from afar, does aid the process.
If their best tech says that "these units aren't made to hold temps less than 75 inside", then he is inept. Just my opinion, but also makes me wonder if he has already had refrigeration gauges on the unit.
Poorly trained techs, designers, and installers undermind the credibility of geothermal everyday. |
|
|
|
|
waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
|
| 02 Jun 2012 07:19 PM |
|
Sometimes their best tec has read the book and checked it twice and the machine is spot on, the design is off. He had to say something or he would still be there or looking for employment somewhere else if he had told the customer that his boss obviously tanked the design. Please pass the meat and potatoes and we can get busy trying to help this guy.
Eric |
|
| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 03 Jun 2012 05:35 PM |
|
Here are the answers to the ten questions. To get the temperatures I set the system to cool at 60 Deg setpoint and left it for an hour. Then I took the measurements.
Other useful information
This is a 2600 sq foot exposed basement ranch, foxblocks ICF construction, full brick exterior, blown R38 Insulation in attic
Window U factor 0.3 Solar Gain of 0.22. Front of house is facing NW.
Design notes said that the house would accomodate 8 people with no window dressings.
The 75/95 Deg temperatures were mentioned in the quoting letter and I questioned them and was told as was mentioned by someone (those are standard design criteria, Don't worry you've got plenty)
Two zones upstairs & downstairs, 5200 Sq ft total
1) Greenville SC
2) Heating load 32000 btu/hr
Heating Temp Diff 68 Deg.F
Cooling Load 36000 btu/hr
Cooling Temp Diff 20 Deg
Constant Fan NO
Winter Design 22 Deg
Summer Design 93 Deg
Bldg Bal Temp 57.8 Deg
Internal Gains 4818 BTU/hr
Comfort Conditions
Heating SP 68
Cooling SP 75
Start Cooling Temp 75
HW temp Setting 130
HW users 2
Annual Load Heat 24.5 million BTU
Annual Load Cool 28.3 million BTU
Hot Water 10.3 million BTU
HW use daily 40 gal
3) Envision ND Dual Capacity Series ND038 Dual Cap ECM with Vertical 1 u bend 1.00"pe
4) Vertical loop (closed 2 300' wells, 10' topsoil 100' Brown dirt 190' Granite.
5) 0.12 $/kWh
6) EAT 69.2 LAT 52.8
7) EWT 84.8 LWT 92.4
8) Percentage of load to be covered by GEO 100%
Balance Point 57.8 ?
9) See Previous posts
10) Projected operating cost $52.00 per month
When I did this experiment I documented the conditions settings and times (took picture of the tstat).
Start (put setpoint to 60)
Indoor temp 69, 53% rh
Outdoor temp was 78 Deg @ thermostat, 51% RH 11:48 am
End (when readings were taken)
Indoor Temp 68 49%rh
Outdoor temp 81 46% rh 1:53pm
In addition to the envision I have an ERV Renewaire EV300 set to 60% of time ventilation
A honeywell DH150 De-humidifier (which is tied to the downstairs thermostat) Runs absolutely constantly.
And the Hot water heater is connected to the envision.
Thanks in advance for the help |
|
|
|
|
engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
|
| 03 Jun 2012 10:57 PM |
|
So to summarize:
1) 5200 SF conditioned space
2) NDV038 (3 ton WaterFurnace)
3) Two zones upstairs / downstairs, 2600 SF each
Entering temp of 69, leaving air temp 53, suggests system setpoint is well below typical indoor cooling design temperature - 75
Loop water temperatures 85 / 93 are reasonable and suggest decent loop water flow.
I suspect your problems arise from excessive ventilation flow from the Renewaire and concomitant excessive Dehu operation. A Dehu trades latent for sensible load as well as adding extra sensible load equal to its energy use. Constant operation of a big central dehu such as the DH150 suggests one or more of several problems:
1) Excessive air leaks into home, bringing in extra humidity / latent load
2) Excesive internal latent (humidity) loads - plants, pets, people, cooking, dryer vent problem...
3) DH 150 control problem - too low setpoint or other internal error.
Try stopping both the ERV and Dehu and see if WF then can meet the load.
Deeper questions:
How many people live in this 5200SF home?
Has a blower door test been run to determine natural air leakage?
Is there ductwork in the attic, and if so, was that factored into load calculation? Ductwork in vented attics cause increased load (typically by a factor of 1/3) via both that duct leaks are lost to the home's conditioned envelope and that attic temperature extremes impact ductwork's modest insulation (R3-R6 in most cases)
|
|
Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
|
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 04 Jun 2012 08:16 AM |
|
There are 5 people and two indoor cats. In the house.
No, A blower door test has never been run. With the ICF and windows, and doors that were bought I would be very suprised if there were any big air leaks.
Thanks for your time. |
|
|
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 04 Jun 2012 08:20 AM |
|
Posted By BrianPK on 03 Jun 2012 05:35 PM
Here are the answers to the ten questions.
To get the temperatures I set the system to cool at 60 Deg setpoint and left it for an hour. Then I took the measurements.
Other useful information This is a 2600 sq foot exposed basement ranch, foxblocks ICF construction, full brick exterior, blown R38 Insulation in attic Window U factor 0.3 Solar Gain of 0.22. Front of house is facing NW. Design notes said that the house would accomodate 8 people with no window dressings.
The 75/95 Deg temperatures were mentioned in the quoting letter and I questioned them and was told as was mentioned by someone (those are standard design criteria, Don't worry you've got plenty)
Two zones upstairs & downstairs, 5200 Sq ft total
1) Greenville SC
2) Heating load 32000 btu/hr
Heating Temp Diff 68 Deg.F
Cooling Load 36000 btu/hr
Cooling Temp Diff 20 Deg
Constant Fan NO
Winter Design 22 Deg
Summer Design 93 Deg
Bldg Bal Temp 57.8
Deg Internal Gains 4818 BTU/hr
Comfort Conditions
Heating SP 68
Cooling SP 75
Start Cooling Temp 75
HW temp Setting 130
HW users 2
Annual Load Heat 24.5 million BTU
Annual Load Cool 28.3 million BTU
Hot Water 10.3 million BTU
HW use daily 40 gal
3) Envision ND Dual Capacity Series ND038 Dual Cap ECM with Vertical 1 u bend 1.00"pe
4) Vertical loop (closed 2 300' wells, 10' topsoil 100' Brown dirt 190' Granite.
5) 0.12 $/kWh
6) EAT 69.2 LAT 52.8 7) EWT 84.8 LWT 92.4
8) Percentage of load to be covered by GEO 100%
Balance Point 57.8 ?
9) See Previous posts
10) Projected operating cost $52.00 per month
When I did this experiment I documented the conditions settings and times (took picture of the tstat). Start (put setpoint to 60) Indoor temp 69, 53% rh Outdoor temp was 78 Deg @ thermostat, 51% RH 11:48 am End (when readings were taken) Indoor Temp 68 49%rh Outdoor temp 81 46% rh 1:53pm In addition to the envision I have an ERV Renewaire EV300 set to 60% of time ventilation A honeywell DH150 De-humidifier (which is tied to the downstairs thermostat) Runs absolutely constantly. And the Hot water heater is connected to the envision. Thanks in advance for the help |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
|
| 04 Jun 2012 09:04 AM |
|
2600SF above ground and a three ton make sense in my neighborhood, I dunno about Southern states.
As Engineer noted eat/lat seem okay.
I wanna be sure this thing is on second stage.
There are indicators on the circuit board.
Next question would be load. try without air exchange for a time.
Behavior matters too. Are you setting the thermostat and forgetting it or dialing down after it's already hot inside?
|
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 04 Jun 2012 10:25 AM |
|
I have one of the really fancy honeywell touch screen thermostat systems. It is programmed as follows: 6am 71, 10 am 72, 6pm, 71, 9 pm 68.
It always seems "damp" in the house. This morning when I got up the temp was 69 and the RH showed 62%. It also never seems that there is much air movement. You can hold your hand 12" above a floor register and hardly feel any movement of air. Some of them you can get within 4" and barely feel a breeze. When the AC isn't on the air always has a "heavy" feel to it, and even with the fan "ON" there never seems to be much air movement.
These are just "feel" observations but they are what everyone in the house is complaining about. On a side note I owned this exact house in WI (built in 2005). We had a conventional system there (renewaire but no De-humidifier) and didn't have these complaints. |
|
|
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 04 Jun 2012 10:28 AM |
|
Both y1 and y2 are lit on the intellizone board, (the waterfurnace side). The system pulls 12 amps constantly. The De-humidifier pulls 8 amps constantly. I am using 20 amps of electricity at least 20 out of 24 hours;. |
|
|
|
|
geodude
New Member
Posts:58
|
| 04 Jun 2012 10:58 AM |
|
I would agree to leave the ERV off for a while maybe the DH too. Your heat/cool loads also suggest that the load was ballparked.
Besides locating air leakage, a blower door test will also give you some good data on how long the ERV should be running and at what cfm. |
|
|
|
|
geodude
New Member
Posts:58
|
| 04 Jun 2012 11:19 AM |
|
Engineer asked a key question , that you have not answered yet. Is there ductwork located in the attic? |
|
|
|
|
BrianPK
New Member
Posts:24
|
| 04 Jun 2012 11:26 AM |
|
No, all ductwork is located in the basement. |
|
|
|
|
ChrisJ
Basic Member
Posts:277
|
| 04 Jun 2012 12:32 PM |
|
Does the ERV share the duct work or have it's own?
Are the zone dampers open all the way, also individual supply dampers?
Plenty of return ducts? No high wall or ceiling returns?
ChrisJ |
|
|
|
|