Single woman, not well off, building a house.  Research thoroughly and decide the prudent thing to do is to go geothermal.
I'm a cook, but I sacrificed the granite counter tops, commercial stove and frig, among other "wants" in order to pay three times what a conventional system would cost.  In the long run, I felt I would come out ahead financially.  Chose what my research showed was the best company at the time doing geothermal - Water Furnace.

$4,000 in repairs later (not maintenance, but repairs) to my upstairs unit and it's finally failed.

The pertinent facts:
Got a bad vibe from the beginning from the original contractor.  Called Water Furnace to request the name of another contractor, was put in touch with their territory manager.  He told me that this contractor was their best and that I should stick with him.  I would be making a mistake to use anyone else.

Upstairs unit never worked properly and had to be constantly re-set.

Several years later I phone the territory manager and demand the name of a different contractor, which I am given.

After his first visit, contractor #2 informs me that I don't have the main unit that was specified in my contract and for which I paid.  I have a single stage unit, not the 2-stage unit I should have.  Additionally, the pump installed with my system is not designed for my set-up, and that's why my upstairs unit keeps failing.  He calls pump manufacturer and confirms that he is correct in making that assessment.

Two letters to contractor #1, copying Water Furnace, informing him what I have just learned.  No offer to make things right.  So I contact two different attorneys.  Both say that although I have just now learned of my problems, the statute of limitations have expired and that I have no recourse.

The line to the upstairs unit collapsed and had to be replaced with PVC pipe in order for the system to work.  I learn later that PVC is subject to leaks, which means I am also sitting on a time bomb.  In the meantime, several other service calls to keep it working.

Pump finally burns out.  Contractor #2 quotes me a price of $2400-$3000 to replace it.  I had remembered hearing some radio ads being run by what is probably the best and most respected HVAC company in the area, advertising that they were now doing geothermal by Water Furnace.  I called them and was told that they don't service my area.  But I was given the name of one of their geothermal subcontractors.  (BTW, they've switched from Water Furnace to Climate Master now). He comes out, and for the price of $1200 his crew replaces my pump kit, the flow center, and changes all of the PVC connected to the flow center with different material.

Now the upstairs unit has completely failed.  I'm getting estimates to replace it with a conventional system, because staying geothermal would be putting a new unit into a system designed to fail.

By the time it's all done, I will have spent over $10,000 above the cost of my original system.  That's less than a conventional system would have cost me from the beginning.  Needless to say, this has been a financial disaster for me.

Through contractor #2, I am told that Water Furnace never got either of my two letters.  However, I find it curious that shortly after my situation came to light, contractor #1 was not allowed to continue to sell their systems any longer.  He was, however, allowed to continue to service systems he had previously installed.  I couldn't figure out why Water Furnace would continue any relationship with him, then it occurred to me that if a different technician started servicing his systems, they may find that others have also paid for systems that they didn't get, and that would open up a can of worms for Water Furnace.  Water Furnace got rid of a bad seed, but they left me hanging out to dry.

These are just the highlights of my situation, I could write pages more.  Yes, I'm mad, and I am venting.  I'm just hopeful that by getting my story onto as many geothermal forums as possible, it will give others pause and something to think about when they decide which company to work with.

Sorry to hear. I'm curious - when you wrote a check for the original system, was it directly to WF or to the contractor? I assume it was WF since you mention that name several times but not the contractor's. Did any WF parts fail?

Posted By MadCow on 17 Aug 2012 04:38 PM
So I contact two different attorneys.  Both say that although I have just now learned of my problems, the statute of limitations have expired and that I have no recourse.

What state do you live in?  What was the original installation date?

I don't know if this is accepted to do on this forum but if you post your concern on HVACTalk, most often the head Waterfurnace dude will answer

I wrote the check to the contractor, the one Water Furnace told me was their best when I asked for a different contractor.  Assuming all of the parts that were used were Water Furnace, then yes, the pump motor and the tubing carrying the water to my upstairs unit failed.

I live in Virginia.  It was installed in 1996.

I will do that, in fact I've found a lot of forums I plan to post this to.  But this has been ongoing for years now, and I've never heard the first word from Water Furnace, and I know they've known about this since it all first came to light.

This is like the 30th Geothermal "expensive & frequent breakdown" thread in the past 6 months. Is this technology really that plagued with issues?

Posted By MadCow on 17 Aug 2012 08:03 PM
I live in Virginia.  It was installed in 1996.

My non-expert understanding is a 5 year statute of limitations for written contracts in VA.  Sounds like your attorneys may be correct.  Sorry for your troubles.  Hopefully WF will assist you.  They have helped others in this forum.

Is this technology really that plagued with issues?

There is nothing that keeps on giving like an unsatisfied customer. Their motivation to write letters is much greater than the satisfied ones.

Posted By Lbear on 17 Aug 2012 08:53 PM
This is like the 30th Geothermal "expensive & frequent breakdown" thread in the past 6 months. Is this technology really that plagued with issues?

Like everything, solar included, heat pumps will attract get rich quick guys as well as plumbers who think this is just like another boiler. It's just piping what can go wrong?

No contractor likes to turn down a job but a heat pump is refrigeration technology and 2 phase heat transfer is NOT the same as using water. To do heat pumps well, you need to be 50% electrician, 50% refrig mechanic and 50% boiler (yup 150%) and how many contractors can claim that knowledge.

Solar is the same way. Anyone can put in a system that will work for the first year but what about year 14........not so many.

That said, there is some c**p product out there but there are more c**p installations.

The problem is that Waterfurnace is dealer direct selling, meaning that they supply the units to selected dealer, which they train, but the dealer , as always, is responsible for the design and installation.
You are complaining about a system which is 16 years old! specially in your trade, you should appreciate that you can take the best ingrediance but if the cook is incompetent, the customer will not get a good meal he or she is happy with. Then the customer finds out that is was not what he ordered, and complains to the supplier of the ingrediens, not the cook, after he ate the whole meal, in your case 16 years later. The problem is that the supplier endorses the cook, something Waterfurnace runs in a lot, and then the cook turns out to be lousy sometimes. Waterfurnace is one of the best geo manufactures out they, but they sign up more and more dealers, and some of them do not turn out well.
You made one crucial mistake here where people warn you over and over here: You selected a brand and not the dealer/installer with the best experience/reputation (althought you asked waterfurnace, but what do you expect, that the WF territory manager sends you to the better Climatemaster dealer?). You should have picked the restaurant or the cook who are known for great meals, and trusted them to pick the right ingredians for you!

Do you have Nat gas available to you? While it's not comforting, you still may be a few bucks ahead if you are in propane or fuel oil country.
I don't understand the "time bomb". With a 30% tax credit available for new geo replace it with geo unless you have Nat Gas.

Posted By MikeSolar on 17 Aug 2012 06:29 PM
I don't know if this is accepted to do on this forum but if you post your concern on HVACTalk, most often the head Waterfurnace dude will answer

For the record, it is the PR Dude-ette (vs head dude) that replies with something like:
"Madcow,
We are unfamiliar with your situation, but if you wish to provide us with your model and serial number and the installer's name we will look into it. If you do not wish to share your information publicly you may send us a PM."

So if you want to cut out the wait you can send them a PM on this forum already.

I think WF's business model does set them up for extra criticism because of the aggressive dealer endorsements, and I think their vetting could be better, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you buy, if your dealer stinks your experience probably will too and manufacturers' in general are not going to be much help.

The question is whether you have a goal other than venting. If you do we can probably help. But use of words like time-bomb suggest you wish to trash an industry because of a bad apple.

Posted By Lbear on 17 Aug 2012 08:53 PM
This is like the 30th Geothermal "expensive & frequent breakdown" thread in the past 6 months. Is this technology really that plagued with issues?

With each complaint you make a similar comment and get similar responses. "expensive & frequent" don't strike me exactly as synonomous with $4,000 over 16 years. In my kneck of the woods a system that would have added around $10,000 to the install cost with no tax credits, would save $2,000 or more/yr in operating costs so even with $4,000 in repairs they would be $18,000/yr 16 years from now; that's more than a grand/yr in positive cash flow!.......give me that plague any old time!

Do you really not understand that people don't tend to vent positive experiences. My customers know about this site, do you think if one were truly P.O'd, you wouldn't have heard by now.
The law of numbers suggests it should happen someday, and it may, but it won't be before I've bent over backward trying to make them happy.

Unfortunately some contractors don't make satisfaction their first priority. That's why we encourage shoppers to ferret out those that do.

It would probably help to keep in mind that a recommendation is not a warranty. And not mentioning any contractor names isn't helpful to anyone else who wants to use/not use them.

Is this just another hit and run complaint. At least a couple follow ups were answered.
In MI people with this kind of trouble have recourse through the state licensing bureau. That may not have a statute of limitations for an unfilled contract.

Madcow,

We are sorry to hear that you have had a bad experience with your WaterFurnace equipment, and would like to look into your concerns further. Please provide your model and serial numbers, as well as the name of the contractor you are working with. If you do not wish to post this information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Posted By joe.ami on 21 Aug 2012 10:39 AM

Posted By MikeSolar on 17 Aug 2012 06:29 PM
I don't know if this is accepted to do on this forum but if you post your concern on HVACTalk, most often the head Waterfurnace dude will answer

For the record, it is the PR Dude-ette (vs head dude) that replies with something like:
"Madcow,
We are unfamiliar with your situation, but if you wish to provide us with your model and serial number and the installer's name we will look into it. If you do not wish to share your information publicly you may send us a PM."

So if you want to cut out the wait you can send them a PM on this forum already.

I think WF's business model does set them up for extra criticism because of the aggressive dealer endorsements, and I think their vetting could be better, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you buy, if your dealer stinks your experience probably will too and manufacturers' in general are not going to be much help.

The question is whether you have a goal other than venting. If you do we can probably help. But use of words like time-bomb suggest you wish to trash an industry because of a bad apple.

Gee wizz Joe, can you read minds?.........WF replied exactly as you said they would.

I have an AT040 (it should have been an AT045, but the dealer claimed his contract copy was "whited out" and the AT040 was written in, my contract copy was not changed, and I paid the price on the original contract we both had), and an AT019, the problem unit.  I have one pump for running both units.  I have already had to replace the pump once.  I am currently working with HVAC by JM, although that's debatable.  I had just switched to them and for the first time really liked the technician (Miles).  When I called about my unit not working he came right out.  After examining it, he came down to me and asked to see the pump for that unit.  I showed him my pump and he said "No, I mean the pump for the upstairs unit".  I told him that the one pump I showed him was the only pump I have.  He looked at the pump, looked at me, looked back at the pump, then started mumbling to himself "This is the first time I've ever seen this, this is a new one for me", and he said that several times.  He said he was going to leave, let the unit try to cool down, and come back the next day and try again to start it.  That would have been on July 27.  He never returned nor called.  Finally on August 2 I called him about coming back, he said he had just been slammed, but would try to make it out on that Sunday (August 5).  I've never heard from him again.  I'm certain he left my house, contacted his WF connection, and was told that I'm a hot potato and just to stay away from me.  This has been my entire history with WF, they've just buried their heads in the sand and pretended I don't exist, hoping I'll just go away.  Unfortunately, I've just finally snapped.