EWT once again,Yet different
Last Post 10 Sep 2013 10:10 AM by joe.ami. 26 Replies.
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jonrUser is Offline
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08 Sep 2013 11:33 PM
It would be interesting if there was a COP, run time, EWT, etc that could be used to define "working but not working properly". What happens on a hot summer day?

If your gpm and temp figures are right, then you are pumping about 5 tons out to the boreholes. This suggests that a lot of internal things are working correctly.


joe.amiUser is Offline
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09 Sep 2013 09:54 AM
We don't know that your loops are not performing properly (or that they are). The same report that has anticipated KW use will have EWT parameters on the opening page. I would not focus soley on the loops particularly if they are designed 30F-90F which is one standard in the industry. Nor would I focus on numbers generated by operating the system abnormally. Nor is comparison to a TX design useful as the field requirements are different.

Grouting of boreholes ensures no bridging of backfill materials, but so does sand and gravel (or others things that might cave in a borehole). There is such a thing as natural backfill vs bottom up grouting. I'm not supporting the practice, but it has been done with satisfactory results.

I would simply tell the installer that you are running at about twice his stated cost and would like him to have a look and resolve it for you. People tend to bridle when second guessed and no one would give any creedence to internet troubleshooters (particularly if the artificial loop field operation has created a red herring).


Joe Hardin
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www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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AZ-gshpUser is Offline
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09 Sep 2013 10:28 AM
To answer geodude's questions:
They bought out a 'Purge Cart' looked something like the picture attached. I have no idea of it's capabilities.
They did this 3 or 4 times over the course of the first year as different things came up. I do know they never ran it more than 3 to 4 hours at a time.
As to the GPM they would take readings in psi and it always seemed to be 14 GPM when they looked at some chart.
jonr, that indeed would be nice.
joe.ami, running it for as long as I did in the table as stated is abnormal, but look at the data with just it running for 30 minutes which is not abnormal. Are you saying you think those numbers are acceptable?
Plus here is another data point for you it is from the dealers on Work Order after one of his numerous visits "water in starting at 79.7 to 95, water out started at 87 to 102.5". They told me all was operating fine.
I just dug out all the old Work Orders I could find yesterday and saw this one. He took his first reading after the unit was running for 10 to 15 minutes and then again just before he shut it down at about 30 minutes.
Joe you and others have been very helpful, and I may actually follow your advise, however I would take the opinions of the people posting on this forum without hesitation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know when someone knows what they are talking about. I have learned more in a few days on this forum than I have from my dealer in months.


joe.amiUser is Offline
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09 Sep 2013 10:40 AM
"joe.ami, running it for as long as I did in the table as stated is abnormal, but look at the data with just it running for 30 minutes which is not abnormal. Are you saying you think those numbers are acceptable?"

I am suggesting only that troubleshooting is not done best with tunnel vision. I do not know the design water temp. Climatemaster design software does default to 95F EWT. Frankly I'm more curious about the TXV situation.


Joe Hardin
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09 Sep 2013 10:58 AM
joe.ami, I could not agree with you more. Why would two TXV valves need to be replaced?? Plus it looks like that glob of solder is sloppy work, but maybe it is that way on the inside as well and therefore partially blocking the tubing.
I plan to punt this to the dealer Monday or Tuesday and present what I know to be the facts, like the electricity usage from my utility company, the EWT table, and his own Work Order. I will then ask him for a plan.
But I admit I am not optimistic about their knowledge level nor enthusiasm and therefore I may be overly sensitive.
It appears we are both logged on and doing real time chat. ;-))


Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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09 Sep 2013 02:37 PM

I don't disagree with Joe that the borehole field may not be the problem.  In fact, I haven't seen any operational data yet that definitively says the unit overall is currently broken.

What has been shared is the unit is capable of cooling the structure down to 70° when OAT averages 68°.  I.e., the unit can drop IAT by 7° in 90 minutes (i.e., about a 1° drop every 13 minutes) when OAT averages 68°.

That's it.  Whether or not 7° in 90 minutes with OAT averaging 68° is normal I would think would depend on many factors, including home SF, and ductwork efficiency and performance.

Further, it looks like you have a certain expectation of lower operating costs, which is reasonable.  In fact, this should dramatically be the case, if, and a big if, it's the same amount of heat being removed from the structure.  If instead, thinking you've got this wonderful cost savings geo unit, you've changed your lifestyle by lowering your tstat to 70° (we'd all be wearing coats if my house were this cold), opening up all of your drapes/blinds to let in nice sunshine, leaving turned on lots of incandescent bulbs, etc., then you may have more than 'eaten up' your hoped for operational savings.

If you're the naturally curious type, like me, you're thus wondering, is the unit performing properly.  I think this is fair.  Two replaced TXVs and poor workmanship appearance on a repair would help most to wonder this.

Calling in your dealer and having good dialog with him/her is your first place to start.  I'd concentrate on showing proof the system isn't saving you money, that you haven't changed your lifestyle since the unit was installed, etc.  And ask him to look things over carefully to figure out why you don't have the savings you expected.

If you have a good professional installer, and if he/she has sat down with you to hear your concerns on lack of lowered operating cost, then this should be all that's needed.

If you're the naturally curious type, and/or if you don't have a good professional and need to do the investigation yourself, then there is plenty you can do to independently verify your system is in good working shape.  In fact, it's much easier to do the measurements with a geo HP unit than with an air source HP unit.

You can start with measuring the air temps to verify they're within the operating limits of the unit.  I.e., for my WF units, max ambient air is 100°, min EAT is 50°. and max EAT is 110°.  A chart showing this is here: EvapAirTemps .

Next you can measure the water loop temps likewise.  Again, for my WF units, max EWT is 120°.

Next you can approximately measure the capacity (tonnage) your unit is operating at each stage.  To do this you'll need to verify you have PT ports in your water loop line at the point of entrance/exit your unit, you'll need a pressure gage, you'll need a manufacturer provided chart showing the relationship between water flow volume and delta pressure measured at the entrance/exit points, you'll need another manufacturer provided chart to approximate the Sensible to Total Cooling Ratio, and you'll need guidance (or do research) on the value of a coefficient used in the calculation that depends on the mix of antifreeze and water (the value is 500 for 100% water).

Done correctly, this will tell you with good approximation the KBTU/hr your system is performing at.  Divide this number by 12 and you'll have a very good idea of how many 'tons' your system is really running at.

The above isn't difficult, but, attention to detail and not making error is essential.  Plan to spend a good amount of time 'coming down the learning curve' as you get good at it

Next, you can keep going and compare your numbers to lots of detailed charts that ClimateMaster provides.  You'll need to examine your DIP switches that set air flow, figure out what CFM you're running at, as this number is needed for the charts.

If at this point you're still 'in the DIY mode' and want to move on to measuring unit performance, it's not difficult - just more time to come down the learning curve with more skills.  Now you'll need some means to measure power consumption at the same instant you measure EWT, LWT, and Delta Pressure (water loop).  Then you can calculate EER and compare your reading to more manufacturer provided charts.

All of these measurements can be done on a one time basis.  Or, you can set up some kind of performance monitoring system, like a number of us here at this forum use.

The Web Energy Logger system I use is DIY.  See details about it here: welserver.com .  Many here on this forum use it.  Docjenser is probably the most advanced with it, and uses it on every installation he does.  I use it at my residence ( WEL0043 ), for many purposes, one of which is to monitor (and alarm) WaterFurnace geo heat pump operational performance.  I also use it for many commercial projects (an example using it for 2 80 ton chillers is here: WEL0640 ).

Cost is $395 + 11 + (15 * 4) to get started - gets you a permanent web site (no monthly fees), the IP appliance that connects between the Internet and your sensors, and 4 temp sensors (for EAT, LAT, EWT, LWT).

The WEL accommodates simple (delta T between 2 temp sensors) and complex (computation of 3 phase Power Factor) arithmetic expressions   You'll program into the WEL these calculations (like for computing KBTU/hr).  There's no need for 'off to the side' analysis.

This is what you need if you want to measure, track, log and chart your temperature measurements.  And then with additional sensors, you can measure things involving power, on time, cycles, etc.

As I said above, this is DIY.  Or you can hire someone local to do it for you.  Or there are people on this forum that can do the work for you too.

Hope all of this helps.

Best regards,

Bill



Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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10 Sep 2013 10:10 AM
The appearence of poor workmanship while unfortunate is not always an indictment of the installers capabilities. Sometimes parts are difficult to get at. Brazing is 2 handed work most often done on your knees with geo, in side a box, surrounded by foam insulation (that likes to catch fire) and other obstructions/obstacles. I'm sure I've had more than 1 braze joint that wasn't winning a blue ribbon at the art fair


Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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