So I've been studying the WSHP for a while now. I want to replace my conventional air to air condenser and NG furnace. I originally got the "I wants" over the WaterFurnace 7 series with it's 41 EER rating. But the prices I got were just ridiculous. So I forced myself to consider other options.

The ground temperature here is 69 degrees. I started studying the numbers, and what I found was interesting.

WaterFurnace ClimateMaster/Carrier
Packaged Packaged
3 Ton 4 Ton 3 Ton 4 Ton
26.4 27.9 Low Speed 25.9 24.7 EER
24.3 23.1 Full Speed 23.0 21.9 EER

Edit: Sorry, I had all the columns lined up, but when posting, all the spaces got compressed. I guess you can still read it, but it is really freaking annoying.

Note that the WF's 4 ton is the most efficient, and CM's most efficient is the 3 ton.

So where is the 41 EER that WF touts? Well, it is there, but not at 70 degree EWT. But honestly, I was totally surprised WF efficency was so low at 70 degrees.

What I found the most interesting is that you can spend twice as much and only get about 2 EER efficiency points out of it. I guess that is the price of being out on the bleeding edge of technology.

So I was going to put in a split system because a split retrofit is so simple. But the system efficiency for a split system runs about 2 EER lower. After seeing the high price ($5K to $7K) of 2 EER, I decided to go with a packages system.

My current furnace in in a closet. I can get the packaged system in there as long as I don't need access to the sides. Joe.ami told me that I did not need side access of the CM packages system. But he warned me about setting the system on a wooden floor because the compressor noise would be amplified. So, now I have more questions:

1) My furnace closet has a raised floor (about 8") where the current furnace draws it's air. If I set the system on an isolation pad, will that eliminate the compressor noise?

2) Since there is no upflow and the return air goes in the side, I would have to draw the air though the wall. I have no problems with having a return air grate on the wall, but should I be concerned about the noise of the fan and air?

3) Should I be concerned about running the in and out water lines up the side of my single story house, across the attic, and then back down to the system? I would guestimate 11 feet up, 25 feet across and 6 feed down.

4) Should I let 2 EER efficiency points change my mind from a Split system to a Packaged system?

Are you on a slab or crawl or......?

Posted By t5800512 on 12 Oct 2013 12:42 PM

The ground temperature here is 69 degrees. I started studying the numbers, and what I found was interesting.

I think this (69° down deep undisturbed temperature for Grand Prairie) is about right.  You're a good amount South of me, and mine is 68° (North of Dallas in Plano).

Posted By t5800512 on 12 Oct 2013 01:29 PM
... My current furnace in in a closet. I can get the packaged system in there as long as I don't need access to the sides. Joe.ami told me that I did not need side access of the CM packages system.
 
But he warned me about setting the system on a wooden floor because the compressor noise would be amplified.
 
... Should I be concerned about running the in and out water lines up the side of my single story house, across the attic, and then back down to the system? I would guestimate 11 feet up, 25 feet across and 6 feed down.

No side access would be a 'show stopper' for a WaterFurnace.  Side access is needed to replace at least the filter/drier unit, and perhaps others.  (I've had my evap coil replaced twice on my WF 3 ton unit).

The compressor in a packaged unit is well insulated, along with the unit's structure, such that direct noise from the compressor should not be a problem.  But, the possibility of noise due to compressor vibration is a negative factor when considering a geo package unit.  Sitting on a non-concrete floor (i.e. on top of the ceiling joists up in an attic, or on a living unit's 2nd floor, or on a living unit's first floor above a crawl space or basement) requires some thought to mitigate possible noise due to vibration.

In my case, my two WF Envision packaged units are suspended from the roof rafters, and thus there's no vibration noise problem.

I would not be concerned about running the water loop lines in the attic if the lines are constructed (HDPE pipe) and installed (fusion) correctly.  Not only do I have 2" lines in my attic, I have my Envision units up there too.  Basically all water connections are in the attic.  I do check the pipe connections to the pumps and the packaged units a few times each year.

Best regards,

Bill

Bill, thank you for your thoughts. I did not realize your units were suspended. Looking at the pictures, it looks like they are sitting of decking in the attic. At least that is what I remember thinking. I guess I could use metal strapping and suspend the unit in my closet if compressor noise is to loud. I don't want to do it twice, so maybe I should just start out that way.

Hey Joe, my house is on a slab foundation, and the closet I mentioned is the only raised flooring. It is in the corner of an L shaped hall. It has double doors that are on the long side of the L. The doors do not go down to the slab. The floor is actually only 9 inches high, and the width is 57 inches, and the depth is 37 inches. On the left side of the closet is the NG hot water heater. So I actually have about 32 inches for the 25.5 inch Geo unit on the right side. I'm considering a packaged system with a right hand return. I would slide it to the right and cut a whole though the wall for the return air. There would not be room for any baffling. I would put a grate on the hall side where the filter could be changed. This is why I'm concerned about the noise from the fan. Anyone that has a ClimateMaster packaged system running in an open room, like a basement, should be able to give me an idea how loud the fan and rushing air are.

So to summarize:

Question 1: Geo Packages systems are well insulated. But suspending the system from the ceiling rafters should eliminate sound from compressor vibrations. This would also save the cost of an isolation pad.

Question 2: Geo packages systems with ECM motors are supposed to be quite. But now quit are they running at full speed with no sound baffling of the intake air? No opinions expressed yet.

Question 3: No big concern about running the water piping through the attic.

Question 4: Should I be concerned about losing 2 EER points with a split system. No one has expressed their opinion on this subject so far.

My thoughts on question 4.

There are several negatives with an split system:
Loss of efficiency.
Complications of being outside ( I.E. ants).
Shortened life expectancy of outside unit.
Added complexity of split system.
Added cost of purchasing separate components?

On the plus side:
Ease of replacing parts (I.E. evaporator coil, fan motor, all parts really).
Shorter water lines that are concealed (running directly into the bottom).

Here's an example of running water loop lines in attic:  http://www.pbase.com/neukranz/image/84286075

Here's an example of a fused water line connection in the attic: http://www.pbase.com/neukranz/image/84286073

Here's an example of a suspended 5-ton WaterFurnace unit: http://www.pbase.com/neukranz/image/84286042

Your unit is up on a 'riser' because of a common local ordinance here in Texas that things that burn Natural Gas must be raised up off of the foundation slab.  That's why your gas-fired Hot Water Heater is up on the same riser.

If you locate a packaged geo unit directly on the slab, you should be ensured of eliminated noise due to vibration.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey Bill, I have thought about cutting a hole in the subflooring so the unit could sit on the concrete. But then it would be in a hole and service would be difficult. But maybe I could cut a hole, and them put in concrete blocks to set the unit up on. I would have to seal the hole so the outside air in the closet does not get into the house. Yes the closet has an attic vent to draw in combustion air for the NG hot water heater.

All things considered, it may be easier to hang the unit. I need to go look to see where the ceiling rafters are, and how accessible they are with the ducting and all.

When I wrote the above comments I thought about recommending that indeed you cut the riser floor in order to put a package unit on the concrete slab, to avoid noise due to compressor vibration.  I didn't though, because I think you have a number of complicating factors, and I'm surely not qualified to recommend solutions.

Further, the only local installer I'm aware of who excels with difficult-to-install situations, who's capable of figuring out unique design considerations, is Eldon Hampton, owner of Geothermal Distribution in Rockwall.  But, you've already spoken with him I think a number of times, without alignment on price.

So what's left is bringing in other local installers to look at your situation, and/or continuing to ask help from the excellent professionals who donate their time here.

I recommend you take some pictures and post them, to help those here who are qualified to help.

Parenthetically, if you've got a current conventional A/C - Natural Gas furnace combo, and, it's not to the point of absolutely requiring replacement yet, then IMO you'll never get the economics of putting in geo to be favorable.  In working many of these situation with local people here, it's my observation with geo that you either put it in at time of initial construction, or you put it in at the point where replacing the existing unit is a 'sunk cost' such that the geo investment analysis can only look at the incremental cost of conventional upgrade versus geo.

If a favorable economic return is required (some people put in geo solely because they want it, regardless of cost), but your current unit doesn't yet require replacement, then IMO you're just putting off the inevitable conclusion that you're not ready yet for geo.

Further IMO, discussions on loss of a couple of EER due to outside temp, or due to package versus split, aren't really the main subjects of concern.  You've got to get comfortable with whatever the cost is, and then bring in someone who is expert at difficult-situation installations.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey Bill, I always appreciate your thoughts. And you have always been so very helpful. I always look forward to your comments.

Eldon has been so busy. He finally called me to come out this past week, but I was at a rent house dealing with a plumbing leak.

Oh by the way, my current system is still running (knock on wood), but I have been expecting the condensing unit to crap out any day. The compressor sounds just horrible when it starts up. It was tripping the breaker, but it has not since I put a hard start kit on it. It is time to replace my current system, before it becomes a fire drill. At that point, it will be to late to install a WSHP.

I'm fine with the price of installing a WSHP system, I just don't want to spend more than I have too. And I want to get as much out if it as possible. Hence my concern about loosing 2 EER efficiency points. And now that I have some possible solutions, I'm less concerned about the compressor noise than the unbaffled sound of the fan. Maybe tomorrow Joe can shead some light on what to expect from the fan.

Oh, I have been going to ask you about heating. Have your systems had to use any auxiliary heat on cold days?

Its quite possible Bill doesn't haver auxiliary heaters. That's often true when cooling loads are larger than heating loads. We use them up here as satisfying 100% of the load with geo, might add 2 tons to the system vs $50/yr in auxiliary heat.
Fan noise is easily mitigated. If you have a central return right off that closet then you want to duct to it with at least 2 90 degree turns and a canvass connector or flexible duct (vibration isolation).
Either your package unit should be on a platform that goes directly to the slab (with no connection to house framing), or I'd go with a split. I would not install your system if we did not select on of those options. If you don't go geo, you are going to have n outdoor split anyway, true?

A few lost EER points is not going to amount to beans on your operating cost.

Posted By t5800512 on 14 Oct 2013 01:01 AM

... Eldon has been so busy. He finally called me to come out this past week, but I was at a rent house dealing with a plumbing leak.

... Have your systems had to use any auxiliary heat on cold days?

Eldon's the only local professional I know of that is exceptional with dealing with difficult to figure out installation challenges.

I'm not familiar with Eldon's pricing positioning.

You've got to be kidding on heating?!  Heating down here in the Dallas area with geo is like 'falling out of bed.'  Probably the reverse of what's up North.

Any local professional who tries to sell to you an aux heating coil just isn't very experienced yet with the design implementation of geo units in the Dallas area.  Aux heating units, along with antifreeze in the loop water, are just not needed.

As usual, here's some data to support the position (all again coming from my  WEL unit):

Here's a picture of 13 months of heat removal and heat injection into the residential structure: Daily Heat Gain/Loss .

You can see that on the coldest of days this past winter the most heat injection needed for the day was about 300 KBTU (red line).  And you can see that it only was required about 3 times.  And that in general 200 KBTU/day is about max, repeatedly, for what's needed for the Dallas climate.  Tstat is generally kept at 68 degrees day with occasionally few hour warmer setting, and at 64 degrees at night.

Note that 300 KBTU/day is only about half of the amount of cooling needed for the hottest of days in the summer.  And 200 KBTU/day is only about one-third of the cooling needed.

Meanwhile, at the same time I might be needing to pull out 300 KBTU for a day, the coldest my EWT is is about 65 degrees - see Daily Avg EWT .

This is only 3 degrees down from down deep undisturbed earth temp for my location (68 degrees).  And allows me to pull the 300 KBTU for the day out of the earth at about 4.9 COP.  Here's a chart that shows actual measured COP for my 5 ton unit, running in first stage (and computing COP exactly the way WaterFurance and all of the other 'big boys' do):



In summary, your challenge with geo in a Dallas climate is getting the unit properly sized for the cooling load your structure presents, sized also to match up to whatever your duct system presents, and get a properly sized borehole field designed that is adequate for the hottest of days and simultaneously will avoid long term borehole field heating.  All of these factors need to be incorporated into the end result geo unit size (package or split) and borehole field size.

I believe geo is a 'no brainer' for the Dallas area, WRT efficiency and operating cost (note all Frisco ISD buildings are now *all* geo).  But unlike conventional A/C, where the Dallas installers can get it good enough by simply going to the distributor and picking up a unit, putting it in in a couple of hours, all without doing any design work, and still be able to get it good enough to where the customer is satisfied (and is thus typically oversized), if a geo implementation in the Dallas area is going to work right and be cost effective it requires some pretty expert design and installing skills (including doing the Manual J, Manual D, Manual T, etc.).  

I've got a friend in a neighboring town (Parker) who's an example of it all going wrong.  12 tons of geo capacity (really big home) with EWT in the summer after a few years of upwards of almost 100 degrees.  He finally got so exasperated such that he hired a conventional A/C person to rip it all out and put in conventional A/C.  Sad.

In my case, the professional did a design with the goal of avoiding the need for 2nd stage, thinking this is the road to most efficient operating cost.  Thus, for my 3400 sf single story structure with a lot of glass, with nothing special WRT insulation, doors or windows, and with a terribly inefficient duct system, the design called for WF Envision 5 and 3 ton 2 stage variable speed units, a borehole field consisting of 8 holes at 300' each with 1" HDPE pipe spaced at 20' apart, and a new duct system that is appropriately sized, all steel except for last 6' of each run to a register, and has supply and return registers at all appropriate places.

You can certainly argue with the design (overkill), but at the time ('07) I wasn't knowledgeable enough to know what to question.  I simply signed up for what the professional said I needed to have.  BTW, Eldon was not the installing professional.

Hope this all helps.  Putting in geo in a Dallas climate will result in tremendous operating savings (it is 'the real deal'), but, it requires considerable design and installation expertise to get it right.

Best regards,

Bill

Also, noting your interest and desire to understand the engineering concepts and details, you may want to decide to go invest in a WEL .  Doing it now will provide to you a pre-install baseline of what your heating and cooling costs are, something I wish I had had.  It also will certainly show you many other energy consumption areas that could use attention for your residence.  Overall, it would give to you a 'jump start' to aggressively cutting your energy related costs.

In your case, for what I think you'd want to accomplish, the significant items would total up to about $700, with you doing DIY installation and configuring.  This of course includes a permanent web site, data logging, and the real time display, all without any monthly fee.  The $700 would be what's needed for the WEL, a power transducer (WattNode) that samples as fast as 2 Watt resolution which would be installed on the service entrance, 2 Current Transformers, a current sensing on/off switch (for the HVAC), and a few temp sensors.  Everything else needed is minor piece parts.

Just FYI.

Bill

Hey Joe, Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I was expecting someone to say something like: "A few lost EER points is not going to amount to beans on your operating cost". I guess that is what I needed to hear. I do tend to get to caught up in the spec's.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make about the air return. If I go with a packaged system in my utility closet, there will not be room for right angles or ducting. I could build a duct to run down the wall to the current air bottom return, but I don't think it would be wide enough for adequate air flow. The return air would have to go straight through the wall into the hall with nothing but the filter and a grate over it to baffle the sound.

I think given all the complications of putting in a packaged system, I will have go back to the split system, and give up the 2 EER efficiency points. Beans! :-)

Say, I have a few questions for you:
Does the ClimateMaster thermostat (along with the DXM2 controller) allow for humidity control?
Also, have you heard anything recently about the CM variable speed compressor product?

Hey Joe, Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I was expecting someone to say something like: "A few lost EER points is not going to amount to beans on your operating cost". I guess that is what I needed to hear. I do tend to get to caught up in the spec's.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make about the air return. If I go with a packaged system in my utility closet, there will not be room for right angles or ducting. I could build a duct to run down the wall to the current air bottom return, but I don't think it would be wide enough for adequate air flow. The return air would have to go straight through the wall into the hall with nothing but the filter and a grate over it to baffle the sound.

I think given all the complications of putting in a packaged system, I will have go back to the split system, and give up the 2 EER efficiency points. Beans! :-)

Say, I have a few questions for you:
Does the ClimateMaster thermostat (along with the DXM2 controller) allow for humidity control?
Also, have you heard anything recently about the CM variable speed compressor product?

Posted By t5800512 on 14 Oct 2013 02:54 PM
... Does the ClimateMaster thermostat (along with the DXM2 controller) allow for humidity control?

I use White Rodgers 1F95-1291 ( http://www.emersonclimate.com/Docum...95-1291%22 ) .  It allows for ambient RH to influence heat/cool temp set points to some degree (which is how I use it), in addition to the more classic control of a separate humidifier based on ambient RH.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey Bill, Thank you for your well thought out response. You always have so much information, and the data to back it up. That is so cool!

I had not thought about it before, but in our area, 8 tons on a 3400 sf house does sound like overkill. What size units did your house originally come with?

I do like the idea of installing a WEL system now to monitor my current system. But I don't think I will have the time to gather the data. I would like to put in the WSHP system this fall while the temperatures are moderate. I'm thinking it will take a couple days, and I don't want to move to a hotel. I wish I had put in the WEL system this summer. Then I would have some before and after number to look at. The summer numbers would have been very useful.