I use White Rodgers 1F95-1291 ( http://www.emersonclimate.com/Docum...95-1291%22 ) . It allows for ambient RH to influence heat/cool temp set points to some degree (which is how I use it), in addition to the more classic control of a separate humidifier based on ambient RH.

Thank you, I will check out that thermostat.

You know, it is funny. All this time I have assumed that Eldon has installed your system.

Thank you again.

Posted By t5800512 on 14 Oct 2013 03:18 PM
... What size units did your house originally come with?

... I would like to put in the WSHP system this fall while the temperatures are moderate. I'm thinking it will take a couple days

Here is  aerial view to show foot print of residence - 3400 sf, single story, built '92.

Originally constructed with a single Lenox 2-speed 5 ton A/C and a 120K BTU/hr Natural Gas furnace.  Furnace, along with evap coil, was up in attic; condenser unit was on East side of structure.  5 zone air distribution, with networked tstats interfaced with occupancy sensors in each room (I did the field testing for AprilAir's 'communicating' tstats, that later became the defacto standard for Crestron and IMX automation systems.)

System gave out after 15 years.  Put in geo in '07.  See previous posting for specs.  3 ton unit has 3 zone air distribution (3 of 4 bedrooms have a tstat).  Consolidated zones 4 and 5 since it was all an open area.

No Manual J, S, T, D, or X ever done for any HVAC system implementations, as far as I know.

Here are images of borehole field installation .  Note that the installing professional used Johnson Drilling.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey, I looked at and read the specs for your thermostat. I really like it! I also looked at Honeywell and some others. I don't like it as well, but I'm thinking of going with the ClimateMaster ATC32U01 because I think it will give me all the same functionality of their diagnostic tool, and save me some money (because I would have to get the diagnostic tool also). The ClimateMaster thermostat uses only 4 wires (called iGate), and will give any fault codes right on the thermostat.

So I bet your original 5 ton system was big enough to cool your house. Jumping up to 8 tons is significant. So, you probably don't see the long easy runs that stage one is for. It runs stage one, cools off and turns off. Is that correct? But at least you are running at the highest efficiency. There is something to be said for that.

Speaking of efficiency; I went back to looking at the split systems again today. I was wrong about the efficiency being only 2 EER lower. It is more like 4 to 6 EER lower. The efficiency drops down to a low of 18.1 EER. I really, really hate that! But at least it will fit in my utility closet with out a bunch of trickery. If I can get over the efficiency disappointment, I hope to order the outside system tomorrow. I've been told it could take up to 40 days to get it here unless I want to pay extra for shipping.

Once I have the outside geo unit, I will be ready to have Johnson come out and do the drilling. I want to have the system before I have him come out because he is going to connect the water pipes and flush the system. I don't have the pipe fusion equipment or a flush cart, so it is important to have him do that.

There is not enough EER in the world to make up for it if your heat pump makes you grind your teeth whenever it comes on.

I like ecobee thermostats

Posted By t5800512 on 15 Oct 2013 12:57 AM
... So I bet your original 5 ton system was big enough to cool your house. Jumping up to 8 tons is significant. So, you probably don't see the long easy runs that stage one is for. It runs stage one, cools off and turns off. Is that correct? But at least you are running at the highest efficiency. There is something to be said for that.

Keep in mind that while I have two GSHP units, capable of providing a max of 8 tons, I only run at 1st stage, and thus I'm cooling the structure with a max of 5.3 tons (two-thirds of 8).  Further, because of tstat set back temps it's rare that I ever am trying to cool the entire structure throughout at the same moment).

Substantially improved, associated with the geo system installation, is the air distribution system.

Because my distribution is zoned, I do monitor evap coil associated temps, with alarms set if supply air gets too cold or delta temp across the coil gets too big or small (see
 http://www.welserver.com/perl/plot/...rTemps.png ).

Best regards,

Bill

Hey Joe, I looked at the ecostat yesterday (EB-STAT-02). I was impressed with all of the features it has, including WiFi. How well does it interface with the ClimateMaster equipment? Will it pass through the fault codes?

Hey Bill, I thought I has picked up on some frustration about your installer over sizing your system. Is that the case?

I have looked at all of your system pictures several times since we met. I have always been impressed. You have such a sweet setup! I just hope my system will turn out as good as yours did. This time, looking at your drilling pictures I was looking to see the size of Mark Johnson's drill rig. I also picked up on the mess (mud and ruts) from the drilling, which I had not paid particular attention to before.

When I originally talked to Johnson Drilling, the ground was so dry I was not worried at all about him driving his rig in. But now with the rain, I'm afraid he will sink up to his axles. Not a pleasant thought since he will have to cut across the neighbors lot to get in. I'm hoping he has some planks that he can put down to drive on.

http://www.americawestdrillingsupply.com/DuraDeck.asp

Just read your thread. You appear to be very fixed with rated efficiency numbers, but please understand that in the real life they do not matter that much. Just to set a bug into your head again, since we installed the first 7 series a year ago, I feel I do everyone a disfavor if I install anything else on the forced air side.
Specifically in if you are in dominated climate, the ability to slow down the blower or speed up the compressor depending on the current humidity, temp etc is a new world.

I would not worry about setting it on wooden floors, put it on a foam pad, and you will be fine. The vibration from the variable speed compressor is so minimal and quiet, the blower makes more noise (which is pretty quiet too).

http://welserver.com/WEL0713/

Here is a sun exposed house, 2600 sqf in Grand Island, NY, with a lot of solar gain where a 3 ton 7 series runs like a charm. Yes, the hardware is 50% more than a dual stage. Well worth it, hands down.

I use them with climatemaster equipment, but no they won't tell you what the fault codes are so I carry a service tool. You can add temp sensors if you like to monitor E and LAT or E and LWT. It logs in excel spread sheets.

Posted By joe.ami on 15 Oct 2013 08:33 AM

I like ecobee thermostats

Joe, much appreciate the comment here.

I looked at these tstats as a result of your prompting here.

I think there's opportunity to use the tstats for retail, small commercial and non-profit structures in a more cost effective manner than using WEL units for the back end analysis, real time monitoring and alarm production.  Plus, it looks like there's some emphasis on internal to the tstat algorithms that take into account weather conditions such that possible energy reduction can occur. 

I'd like to look at all this first hand, so much so that I'm working now to procure 4 of the tstats for a project to gain detailed familiarity.

After I get set up I'll start up a separate thread to share what I learn.

I was familiar with the original Ecobee offering, but, thought there were some limitations, and thought the stats were expensive relative to the features.  I was not aware that there's a 2nd generation product now available.  It looks like they've made some significant advancement progress with the 2nd generation.

Thanks for the prompting on this product!

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By docjenser on 16 Oct 2013 08:53 AM
... ability to slow down the blower or speed up the compressor depending on the current humidity, temp etc is a new world.

... The vibration from the variable speed compressor is so minimal and quiet, the blower makes more noise (which is pretty quiet too).

Yep, I had forgotten that the new WaterFurnace series has variable speed compressors.  All the more emphasis that compressor noise vibration is not generally a problem (when using the new WF offering) regardless of installation method.

Even in the Envision series, I have found the ECM blower fans to be exceptionally quiet.  And inaudible when running on 'fan only' setting without compressor running.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey GeoDean and DocJenser, thank you for reading my thread and adding your thoughts. So far it has been Joe and Bill that have been carrying the thread. So it is great to have you join in.

I would love to put in the WF 7 series. Beside the financial obstacle (being twice as much), it just would not work because it needs access to three sides for service work. I guess I could cut another hole in the wall and put a door on it to access the lower right side. But the left side would just not happen.

Does anyone know how important access to the left side is on a WF 7 series? I think someone told me that is where the compressor is. I would not expect to have to replace the compressor for a very long time. Probably the life of the unit.

I would go as far as pulling the unit out if I have to do such an invasive service work. We put over one hundred WF units in in the last 3 years, and I yet have to replace a part I could not access through the front door. Even if I do have to do it, you disconnect the source and the desuperheater pipes, and disconnect the ductwork. Takes about 30 min, and you pull the unit out. 7 series equipment costs is about 50% higher than 2 stage. We sell them for a $4K premium which is about 10-15% of the total system costs.

Hey DocJenser, Thank you for your feedback. I really do appreciate it. It is great to hear from someone that has your experience.

What types of WF repairs have you been seeing? I think Bill said that he had the evaporator coil on his three ton WF replaced twice already, and it is not that old. Is WF is having reliability issues?

FWIW, our 3-ton WF Envision was turned on in Jan 2009 (on
President Obama's first term inauguration day). ZERO faults,
so far. Works like a champ. (Heating dominated Philly 'burbs.)

...competent & ethical installation contractor is key,

Looby

Posted By t5800512 on 16 Oct 2013 08:45 PM
Hey DocJenser, Thank you for your feedback. I really do appreciate it. It is great to hear from someone that has your experience.

What types of WF repairs have you been seeing? I think Bill said that he had the evaporator coil on his three ton WF replaced twice already, and it is not that old. Is WF is having reliability issues?

No, they have been utterly reliable. I had issues with Climatemaster (exhaust pipe vibration (high pitch noise)), Hydrons (condensate sensor placement), but with the exceptions of a stuck reversing valve and a defective temperature or pressure sensors, WF has been very reliable. I know they had Coil corrosion problems before, but due to new coating procedures they should be problems of the past.

Hey Looby, thank you for jumping in. I always appreciate your input.

Doc, it is great to know someone who has so much experience with WSHP systems. I got thinking you had been doing a lot of repairs. I'm glad to hear that WF is holding up well.

So we seem to have different ideas about cost. Would you mind PM'ing me what you feel is a fair price for a 7 series with the variable speed pumps, and the other necessary options? That way I can know if I'm getting a fair price offer.

Posted By t5800512 on 16 Oct 2013 08:45 PM
... Bill said that he had the evaporator coil on his three ton WF replaced twice already, and it is not that old.

The first coil failure was due to installer error.  In '07 ductwork sheet metal screw was drilled into coil, with coil then patched, and unit recharged, all at installation time.  Two years later damaged and patched coil failed.  Coil was replaced with a WF supplied non-coated coil, which only lasted about 1 or 2 years.  Coil was replaced again, this time with a coated unit.  This is coil currently operating with.

Each time a coil is replaced the filter/drier has been replaced too.

Best regards,

Bill

Thank you Bill. So how long have you been running on the coated coil? It sounds like WF may have resolved their biggest issue.