I am not fan of big government. I don't want them to protect me and I have had a couple of bad experiences with "the system" lately.

I don't think there is a notable difference between houses built where codes are versus are not enforced. An educated homeowner is the best way to a quality job.

Don't you think an educated contractor is a little bit more important than an educated homeowner quality wise?

Posted By ICFconstruction on 17 May 2010 08:01 AM
I am not fan of big government. I don't want them to protect me and I have had a couple of bad experiences with "the system" lately.

I don't think there is a notable difference between houses built where codes are versus are not enforced. An educated homeowner is the best way to a quality job.

I would think that even though there was not a code enforcement the home was problably built pretty close if not to code. In areas that do not have code enforcement there maybe other methods of insuring it is built right such as a home inspector or other professional doing inspections.

Is code enforcement done to high standards? As you know it is not. Does it accomadate new knowledge, processes or materials. Not always.

I think there is a role for government and I think code enforcement and zoning fall into those areas. Will they be perfect - No. Without some type of code and code enforcement think how much worse things could be. Think of all the hidden electtrical boxes and plumbing issues that would be hidden for years. Footings that may hold under normal conditions but when those unusal conditions they start failing.

Posted By greentree on 19 May 2010 08:20 AM
Don't you think an educated contractor is a little bit more important than an educated homeowner quality wise?

Yes, you are right of course. I wasn't even thinking of that. So a building official is a distant third.

They raise money for the Government

They keep people in work

Most homeowners are not that educated. I've seen and heard of many jobs that were crap and stopped by inspectors. I've seen tons of hidden junction boxes. What homeowner is going to know that second floor water heaters have to be externally drained? And even though the inspector for the drywall took three days to come out to look at the screws it's better for the homeowners if someone is checking the work.

I've walked on roofs that were sheathed in nominal 1/2" ply. I've seen beams that plumbers had hacked away at until there was only an inch of beam left.

What if you build a "temporary" addition to your house and skimp a little knowing that in a few years you'll build it right but then you die and someone buys your house not knowing whats under the siding.

I could go on and on. All the biggest disasters lately have been from a LACK of inspections and regulations. Mining disasters, oil spills, bankers run amok, wall street cheaters, natural disasters in countries with poor building codes kill many more people than the same disaster in a country with good code. I could just imagine the chaos if we had no building code.

Posted By Roberth on 19 May 2010 09:38 AM


Is code enforcement done to high standards? As you know it is not.

I agree with ya there... just passing code is like passing high school with a D-

I was on a business trip to Guyana in January, there are no codes... the four story Hotel I stayed in was all wood, no elevator, no fire sprinklers , no fire extinguishers, tub access was 8" from wall, no hadicapped access in any public buildings.

The office we visited had exposed romex wiring stapled to the wall boards, covered with a coat of matching paint.

The Minister of Housing office was on the second floor with non -compliant "winder" stairs and no hand rails

Thats only the stuff I could see!.............

Yes codes are a must unless we want 3rd. world standards

A strong building code is good for everyone involved.
But like everything that is good that becomes governmentalized, it is overrun with undereducated mid level bureaucrats, who spend most of their time trying to justify their existance. The same is true not only for the inspection and enforcement people, but also the people who write the codes. How else do you explain 20 pages of minutia about a subject I have never had a need for and one sentence about a subject that I need clarified regularly.
And why is it that the engineers who write these things can only speak engineering and not English?
Simple rules written in everyday language, enforced by knowledgable people would be a good thing. What we have now does not qualify as a good thing.

Double post

It's very hard to write things simply. That's why Apple is so successful. They make things simple.

THis anti-government thing has gone too far. With no rules it turns to chaos. Business can't function without a level and predictable playing field. and then there is this kind of stuff.

Man Who Shot Police Had Antigovernment Views
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/us/22arkansas.html?hp

Posted By Rsipgeo on 22 May 2010 12:04 PM
It's very hard to write things simply. That's why Apple is so successful. They make things simple.

This anti-government thing has gone too far. With no rules it turns to chaos. Business can't function without a level and predictable playing field. and then there is this kind of stuff.

Man Who Shot Police Had Antigovernment Views
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/us/22arkansas.html?hp

No I think it is big government that has gone to far. Everything has turned in to ways to make more money for the government so that they can expand. Based on our constitution government is supposed to be small and serve the people. It has turned to we are here to follow the governments wishes and to serve them.  That is where a lot of the anit goverment sentitment is coming from.

I think there is a need for zoning and building codes. The problem is that we get these codes that cant take into account all the variables and new products.  The codes can be to rigid and it can be difficult to get the code offical to allow variances.

That's just junk you heard on talk radio. Show me any govt. official who thinks "we are here to follow the governments wishes and to serve them". It sounds good on the radio but it's just not true. Nor does anyone want the govt. to expand just to be really big. Are there corrupt officials? Of course! Just like everywhere else.

You know what the constitution has built into it? The very thing you want from the building codes: it is flexible and can account for changing situations.

Now to say our constitution is some rigid document that can not change is actually not at all what the Constitution says.

Rsipgeo;

I never met a building inspector/official that viewed themselves as "Public Servants"

I'm here to defend building inspectors. A good builder can usually make more than an inspector and the work is more interesting. Good builders stay builders.

However, you have to understand that a building inspector is not there to serve you the builder. There are there to make sure the building is good to the best of their abilities. So no, they are not YOUR public servant. They are in service to the building as it is supposed to exist long after you, the builder, is gone.

What's the real problem here? Why all this Glenn Beck nonsense? Did the inspector put a hold on your SIP project?

Rsipgeo;

never had a problem with inspectors as they relate to SIP construction,

what I do have is a problem with inpectors enforcing "non" code issues, things that are their opinion, inspectors that won't inspect a roof because it would mean getting on a ladder, instead making the contractor write an afidavit letter certifying that it was done according to the code.
What the hell do I need a lazy inspector for, if I am inspecting my own work!

What is nonsense, is listening to the inspectors at their office compare stories of how they twisted around some poor sap and made the contrator jump thru hoops to get their inspection.

I don't want them to be my personal servant , I want them to serve the county or city citizens by only enforcing the code, without causing undue burdens on the building industry thru ridiculous demands.

Definition of Building instpector:  " a bankrupt building contractor that could not hack it in the real world, so now his mission in life is to make others miserable with him"

Posted By Rsipgeo on 22 May 2010 11:39 PM
That's just junk you heard on talk radio. Show me any govt. official who thinks "we are here to follow the governments wishes and to serve them". It sounds good on the radio but it's just not true. Nor does anyone want the govt. to expand just to be really big. Are there corrupt officials? Of course! Just like everywhere else.

You know what the constitution has built into it? The very thing you want from the building codes: it is flexible and can account for changing situations.

Now to say our constitution is some rigid document that can not change is actually not at all what the Constitution says.

Yes the constition can be change by amending it. 

I would say that when the government can tax at the rate they are taxing you have become a servant of the government.  Fanniemae and Freddiemac are GSE's that created the economic mess we are in.  In the 90's the GSE's watered down the lending regulations with direction from congress. Looking at the accounting mess and corruption that took place when Franklin Raines was at the controls.

I look at the health care reform taking control of an industry even when the majority did not support it. AZ  makes a law to deal with illegal immigration and they are being demonized by the whitehouse.  Is this the government serving the people, I say no.

cmkavala, not all inspectors are like that and it does not mean the building codes are bad. just your local inspector. I feel your pain.

Roberth,
Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm

you need to do a bit more research into the roots of the housing crisis and stop getting all your news from fox. As far as I can tell you've been brainwashed by them so there is really nothing more I'll offer on this. Except to say that it is well documented that Fox news viewers are the least informed of all news consumers.

Rsipgeo;

if you think I am against codes then you need to re-read the thread!

There are good inspectors and bad inspectors, just like there are good and bad contractors. Some of the work I have seen by so-called "professional electrical contractors" looks like they have never even heard of the NEC. As I stated in the other thread, codes are there to protect everyone, including the people who will be using the building after we are all gone. You may not like it but until people stop taking shortcuts they are necessary. Would YOU want to live in a high-rise where the builder may have taken "liberties" with the concrete mix to save money? Or live in a house with #14 wire on 20 amp breakers because the contractor underbid the job (and without codes they ALL will underbid and take shortcuts to remain competitive)? Usually on my jobs the contractors who complain the most about the inspectors are the ones getting caught doing substandard work.