If you're charging by billable hours you have to charge enough to cover the headache of PITA type DIYers. Certainly the DIYer and not the company that just filled & tested it should be the one on the hook for the appropriateness of the unit for the climate, and the sizing for the application etc., and not the contractor.

You can't have it both ways- for a DIY you should expect to pay out of pocket if the unit or installation goes south on you. Whining about warranties should really only be a privilege conferred on those who pay retail IMHO.

Many states will restrict any electrical & plumbing work to licensed professionals, many do not. To be sure in states where it's restricted it puts some liablity on the contractor who commissioned it but had no part in other aspects of the installations, which means "mostly DIY" would be off the table.

I doubt there is gouging going on by contractors on mini-split installations, though I'm sure there are exceptions. In recent experience in both my neighborhood and in neighborhoods 3000 miles away from mine quotes for the same model 1.0 & 1.5 ton mini-splits have come within 10% of one another, with one notable exception. Professional contractors have to charge professional rates, and most are even worth it. But if you're really hungry and can't pay those rates, a mini-split installation isn't a rocket-science project if you want to bootleg it. (Personally I'd just pay it. YMMV.)

"If you're charging by billable hours you have to charge enough to cover the headache of PITA type DIYers."

Yes and that is where I come up with a 1/2 man day for an installer and a helper. One can work while the other answers questions.

"Certainly the DIYer and not the company that just filled & tested it should be the one on the hook for the appropriateness of the unit for the climate, and the sizing for the application etc., and not the contractor."

Yes that would make sense wouldn't it. Too often however when things go wrong the DIY never points a thumb at their chest, they point a finger at the only involved pro.

We will still help the DIY, but it would be loosely $600 for what was described and the DIY will have a better product for it (as I will then be willing to help with warranties etc.).

In recent experience in both my neighborhood and in neighborhoods 3000 miles away from mine quotes for the same model 1.0 & 1.5 ton mini-splits have come within 10% of one another, with one notable exception

That was my experience, too. Quotes on the radiant heating system varied roughly from $40K to over $130K, while the minisplit installation, even using different manufacturers, and with some differences in capacity, varied less than 10%, right around $8K.

"That was my experience, too. Quotes on the radiant heating system varied roughly from $40K to over $130K, while the minisplit installation, even using different manufacturers, and with some differences in capacity, varied less than 10%, right around $8K."

Ok you have to add a lot of context to that to make it a relevent statement. A mini split is specific and has finite capacity so it can only cost so much. A radiant system can be electric, gas, fuel oil, propane, geo, for 1 room or a zillion square feet, with radiators, infloor, baseboards, radiant walls, cielings or panels, with efficiencies from 80+ to ~98%. Then the control packages, a modest ranch we did last year with some radiant cooling needed a control package that cost what I might pay for a minisplit (BTW that was a geo radiant system for around 40K).

A mini split is specific and has finite capacity

Maybe you didn't see where I said "even using different manufacturers, and with some differences in capacity...".

"Maybe you didn't see where I said "even using different manufacturers, and with some differences in capacity..."."
I did.
When I say specific, that means it is a minisplit regardless of brand (it is a specific type of appliance) vs radiant which is a delivery system with all the associated questions I mentioned before (and the heat plant or appliance yet TBD).
When I say finite. the largest mini split is only a few tons larger than the smallest where radiant systems could be 100's of tons apart.
.......but I'm sure you understand my point, so why ignore it? The comparison you used to support Dana's point is not viable.
Instead you might consider that among the reasons minisplit prices are similar is because of the limits I describe. They are a specific product with specific installation requirements that don't change much with size.

The comparison you used to support Dana's point is not viable.

Well, of course it is. I just expanded on it. Why are you so opposed to it?

It's even more interesting that my radiant system had 40 pages of recommendations, including professional heat loss studies and I still got a variety of proposals differing by as much as 300%. There is no question that some were gouging. The ductless heat pump system was bid by a number of places that had nothing to go on yet the proposals varied remarkably little. My read on that is that so far, people can get DHP proposals that are relatively free from gouging.

ICF you are comparing a dorm fridge to a walk in cooler. One has specific boundries while another has virtually no limits. You didn't "expand" you made it infinite.
In case you missed it all I said was you have to add a lot of contest to make your observation relavent (i.e. boilers with eactly the same distribution system, control package etc.).

The quotes I'm talking about are comparing same make & models quoted by, different contractors, different houses in different states, all hitting within a 10% range of turnkey installed price, with very few outliers. This has been the case for multiple -FE15NA and -FE12NA Mitsubishis I've ever seen quotes on, as well as on Fujitsu -12RLS2s. Systems quoted in MA, NH, OR, & WA have almost always hit the same price-window on same-models.

That MUST be due to a price-fixing conspiracy cooked up by the manufacturers, eh? :-)

Dana.....aren't the contractors in your area union?

I'm not suprised that the prices are similar on minisplits. Again the work is similar and the infrastructure is similar. Why is that a suprise? Nor is it a suprise that other systems vary more wildly in price as the insallation becomes more complicated and the available features are greater.

You can't compare splits to ducted or radiant systems unless all other things are equal. As I pointed out early on one control package I bought for a hydronic system cost more than the average minisplit (about 2K my cost). That was 5% of the job right there because of unique features I offered.

All things are not equal in ducted or radiant systems. Code minimum ducts perform like code minimum envelopes- lousy. There is no code minimum minisplit installation. There's not a thousand choices on features. To compare price similarities in mini splits to seemingly disimilar pricing on other systems without the context of features and quality is a fools errand.

If anything the observation that pricing is similar regardless of location suggests (contrary to popular opinion) that hvac guys actually have formulae for mark-up and business vs just pull numbers out of their @#&.

Joe, well stated.  Amen.

It's not a surprise that the quotes come in about the same- it's not all that complicated a job, but nobody has the magic bullet that can get 'er done in an hour.

robinnc: I don't ask whether a contractor's labor is union or not, nor do I care a whole lot, as long as they're competent and don't appear to be abused by the employer for immigration-status or other reasons. The labor markets in MA/NH are pretty different from those in OR/WA, but competent labor is mobile, and if you don't pay them enough they'll find a better gig. I have no problem with paying union scale for competent labor. I have something problem with underpaid incompetent hacks employed by fly-by-night contractors, since fixed a botched job is usually more expensive than doing it right. It's not always easy to tell the hacks from the pros going in without getting some detailed recommendations. The recommendations that are most valuable are those that describe how it was handled when something didn't go perfectly the first time.

ICFHybrid: Different contractors have different cost structures, and some don't have the competence/confidence to bid it very close to the wire, and others may be clueless enough to not sufficiently cover any potential down side. I'm not saying gouging never happens, but that's just one of many reasons why a not-so-simple job might come in with quite a range of quoted prices.

"The recommendations that are most valuable are those that describe how it was handled when something didn't go perfectly the first time."

Indeed my references include projects where things went wrong.

My quotes varied by about 25% for identical equipment. Most of them were pretty close, with one wild (expensive) one.

Meanwhile, I found a well-recommended licensed installer to work with. I bought the equipment, and will place it, drill the holes, basically all of the grunt work. He will do the final line hook-up and purge, add freon if needed, and test run the system. He'll sign the warranty card as well. I'll still save about $1500 off of the lowest turn-key bid, and I'll know everything was done right.

So what was the licensed installer total price jdebree?

It comes to about $4300 for two single-head systems, a 9K and a 12K. These are the more efficient H2i units with low temperature capability and 23-26 SEER. Most quotes were $6000, +/-.

Sounds about right, you do the work of an electrician and most of the work of a mechanic, throw away insurance and labor warranty as well as other odds and ends (did you bother with the electrical and mechanical permits) and you save less than 30% (if your time is worth nothing).

You may have the same 2 minisplits, but the end product is not the same. Many folks would rather have the appliance backed by a company and not have to mess around with the install.

My father was an engineer and much the same way, very frugal. He likely could have moonlighted for less hours than he spent on a variety of DIY projects and made more.

Of course I have permits for everything.

My whole build is not cost-effective from the stand-point of my labor. If I kept working at my job and banked my pay, I could have paid someone else to build the entire house. From what I see all over, it would have been full of mistakes and short-cuts, too. I'm building my own house because it fulfills a life-long dream, and because I am an absolute stickler for things being done right. I could write a book on the stories I've heard while researching for the last 7 years.

I wouldn't trade this experience for anything.

"Of course I have permits for everything."

The law and order guy in me appreciates that. You made an honest comparison that others can employ to weigh the value of DIY or contract out.