Posted By Lbear on 29 Mar 2014 02:04 AM

Posted By ba_icf on 28 Mar 2014 07:20 PM
I realize that this is a green forum, but if we want the general population to accept things, then being green alone won't convince many people.

Building with ICF is not the "norm" and similar negative things said about utilizing mini splits is said about ICF.

Posted By ba_icf on 28 Mar 2014 07:20 PM

 Show me a builder who will build or has built a whole tract with mini splits.  Based on so many arguments here about builders trying to do stuff in the cheapest way that meets code and in conjunction with the many arguments how mini splits are much cheaper than ducted systems and are totally adequate to heat/cool an entire home, it should be easy to convince a builder to change his ways, because every house he builds will cost him less, and presumably, he will sell it for the same amount, so more profit for the builder.

If you visit forums like Green Building Advisor you will see that they already built tract homes using ductless mini splits and employing green building techniques. They are out there. Are they the standard? Of course not, but they do exist, you just have to look a little more to find out.

Most builders are like old dogs. You can't change them. Once they learn the trade, they are not quick to change their methodology. What has changed here in the USA since the 1970s? We are still placing R13 fiberglass batts into 2x4 walls and placing HVAC ductwork in an unconditioned attic. The same as was being done in 1972.

We get it, you dislike mini splits and don't think they belong in new homes. As mentioned, the same can be said about ICF and any other "new" green building technology.

The standard here in the USA is to build a leaky wood frame home and stick in an over-sized ducted HVAC system that will cost you a fortune to run for the life of the home. A new built home that is airtight and highly insulated can be cooled/heated with a ductless mini split. It has been proven time and time again.

Ductless Mini Splits

Seriously, you need to learn to read what is being written.  I said, if using mini splits requires many sacrifices, then it will be hard to get people to use them.  Every where I have seen them being used, and it was used as an argument for their viability, is that the homes weren't comfortable.  Then people talk about all of the restrictions on the floorplan and huge variations in room temperatures, and I am saying that most people won't accept that.  It has nothing to do with hating them.

It is the same thing with ICF.  If there are too many sacrifices using them, they people won't use them.  The major one that I see is lack of contractors that can do the work, so the cost is high.  I am not sure of your point.  If people don't feel the positives outweigh the negatives, they won't do it.

When I try to convince people to use ICF, I don't say, it is green, just get it.  Read Green Building Advisor, they say it is good.  That convinces nearly no one.

You never supply any positives just rhetoric.

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Mar 2014 09:42 PM

Seriously, you need to learn to read what is being written.  I said, if using mini splits requires many sacrifices, then it will be hard to get people to use them.  Every where I have seen them being used, and it was used as an argument for their viability, is that the homes weren't comfortable.  Then people talk about all of the restrictions on the floorplan and huge variations in room temperatures, and I am saying that most people won't accept that.  It has nothing to do with hating them.

It is the same thing with ICF.  If there are too many sacrifices using them, they people won't use them.  The major one that I see is lack of contractors that can do the work, so the cost is high.  I am not sure of your point.  If people don't feel the positives outweigh the negatives, they won't do it.

When I try to convince people to use ICF, I don't say, it is green, just get it.  Read Green Building Advisor, they say it is good.  That convinces nearly no one.

You never supply any positives just rhetoric.

ICF requires many sacrifices and getting people to use ICF has not been easy. I am providing links to scientific data that shows ductless mini splits can and are used in homes to provide very comfortable heating/cooling all while being extremely energy efficient.

Show me viable evidence that shows that where mini splits were used that, "the homes weren't comfortable." I have yet to see that stated anywhere on Green Building Advisor.

Posted By Lbear on 29 Mar 2014 09:59 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Mar 2014 09:42 PM

Seriously, you need to learn to read what is being written.  I said, if using mini splits requires many sacrifices, then it will be hard to get people to use them.  Every where I have seen them being used, and it was used as an argument for their viability, is that the homes weren't comfortable.  Then people talk about all of the restrictions on the floorplan and huge variations in room temperatures, and I am saying that most people won't accept that.  It has nothing to do with hating them.

It is the same thing with ICF.  If there are too many sacrifices using them, they people won't use them.  The major one that I see is lack of contractors that can do the work, so the cost is high.  I am not sure of your point.  If people don't feel the positives outweigh the negatives, they won't do it.

When I try to convince people to use ICF, I don't say, it is green, just get it.  Read Green Building Advisor, they say it is good.  That convinces nearly no one.

You never supply any positives just rhetoric.

ICF requires many sacrifices and getting people to use ICF has not been easy. I am providing links to scientific data that shows ductless mini splits can and are used in homes to provide very comfortable heating/cooling all while being extremely energy efficient.

Show me viable evidence that shows that where mini splits were used that, "the homes weren't comfortable." I have yet to see that stated anywhere on Green Building Advisor.

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes?  I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable. 

I didn't realize that if it isn't found on Green Building Advisor then it doesn't exist.  Also, your link that you continue to list says almost absolutely nothing.  There is no scientific data in any of the links that you have provided on this thread.  The latest link is just one dude's opinion.  Extremely far from being scientific.

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Mar 2014 11:34 PM

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes?  I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable. 

I didn't realize that if it isn't found on Green Building Advisor then it doesn't exist. 

You mean a Taiwanese home that has an R-Value of R-2 ?

You can have the best ducted HVAC system in the world but if your walls and roof R-Value is in the single digits, the home will be very uncomfortable.

The Green Building Advisor has many scientists and building science experts that are leading the green building industry. They are not foolish and are highly educated people. They recommend ductless mini splits over conventional HVAC systems.

Posted By Lbear on 30 Mar 2014 12:27 AM

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Mar 2014 11:34 PM

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes?  I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable. 

I didn't realize that if it isn't found on Green Building Advisor then it doesn't exist. 

You mean a Taiwanese home that has an R-Value of R-2 ?

You can have the best ducted HVAC system in the world but if your walls and roof R-Value is in the single digits, the home will be very uncomfortable.

The Green Building Advisor has many scientists and building science experts that are leading the green building industry. They are not foolish and are highly educated people. They recommend ductless mini splits over conventional HVAC systems.

why do you keep bringing it up?  in the very earliest discussion people used asia as a place where they are using mini splits, so that means it is viable.  i have told you numerous times, mini splits in taiwan are their only option for most people, and they don't really do a great job.

you asked for a place where they use mini splits and it isn't comfortable, and I gave you an example.  now you are qualifying it.  i am saying that there are 1000s of these installations, and they all aren't that great.

if the green building advisor is great, why do you keep sending us links of articles which have no scientific data, send us an article with some real data.

the last article that you send would also apply to window units, and i would say even more so, because it is a totally enclosed system which is the whole basis of the article that a ducted HVAC system has so many components and places where mistakes can and do occur and so mini splits which are simpler, fewer components, etc, and therefore, and it is very hard for an installer to make a mistake, so you should be promoting window units, too, which have even fewer components and probably a person with an IQ of 80 could install a window unit and keep it under warranty.

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes? I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable.

Why do you have a fixation with Taiwan? Ductless minis are used the world over with good results, including right here in the US. I hope you can understand, that in terms of installing a ductless mini in the US, Taiwan has little to nothing to do with it.

so you should be promoting window units, too,

And, what is your fixation with that? You keep telling people what they should be promoting? Window units are noisy and they block a window. They're not at all the same as ductless minis. Your logic is pushing the bizarre on this.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 30 Mar 2014 01:39 AM

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes? I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable.

Why do you have a fixation with Taiwan? Ductless minis are used the world over with good results, including right here in the US. I hope you can understand, that in terms of installing a ductless mini in the US, Taiwan has little to nothing to do with it.

so you should be promoting window units, too,

And, what is your fixation with that? You keep telling people what they should be promoting? Window units are noisy and they block a window. They're not at all the same as ductless minis. Your logic is pushing the bizarre on this.

I will spell it out to you.  Lbear asked for an example.  The only example I have is Taiwan.  I am sorry if that offends your sense of decency.  Also, as previously stated, people mentioned Asia as a place where they are used, so that justifies their use in the US.

Why would a "window" unit block a window?  For a new home or whenever you are installing a mini split, you have to have something on the wall, so wherever you were planning to put a minisplit, put your "window" unit.  Presumably, you don't have a window in the same location as your mini split, and if it is new construction, just put an additional hole in the wall.

What I am telling you is that many people don't see the big difference between mini splits and window units.  they are individual units designed to heat/cool a room or small area.  They have the blower location in the unit.  The only difference I see is that the compressor is located in the "window" unit, and the mini split has a separate compressor to help mitigate noise.  Not a huge difference.

Posted By Lbear on 29 Mar 2014 02:44 PM

Posted By jdebree on 29 Mar 2014 07:41 AM
It is true that the building industry is slow to change, especially here in the rural south. I had one A/C contractor do a 'curb quote' on my house- from his office. Without knowing ANYTHING about my house other than the square footage, he said I would need about 2-1/2 tons for A/C.

As I drive around here, I see new houses going up built the same old way. The inspectors don't pay any attention to air sealing, insulation, hardly anything at all. They have commented about how solid my house is, and that I should be able to heat it with candles.

As for installing the minis, I've learned two things so far. It's a LOT of work putting a 2-1/2" hole through an ICF wall (plan ahead), and apparently they use different stud spacing in Japan, since none of the mounting holes line up with anything. Two of the required holes are 22" apart. I had to order very long tapcons for those.

Did you put a 3" PVC sleeve into the ICF wall PRIOR to the pour for the mini split?

Unfortunately, no. That's one of the problems in designing your own house. It's a very complicated job to design an entire house pre-build, and I decided to let some decisions wait until later- including A/C placement. I knew I was using minis; I just didn't think it through before pouring. I had originally planned to put ducted heads in a dropped ceiling in a central closet, until I found out that you couldn't get the same low temperature capability and efficiency that the wall-mounted units offer. I've had to drill several holes for other things, but they were all small, compared to the hole for the A/C lines. ICF does not lend itself to change orders.

The only example I have is Taiwan.

Why would a "window" unit block a window?

the mini split has a separate compressor to help mitigate noise. Not a huge difference.

I hope you understand, that when you say things like this, it puts you outside the bounds of rational discussion on this topic.

I've had to drill several holes for other things, but they were all small, compared to the hole for the A/C lines.

Funny story. I arrived on the building site one morning to find one of the guys banging together treated bucks. They were smaller than a window but not much. I moved on to something more pressing, but after a few minutes I realized that I didn't recall having any penetrations of the size he was fabbing, so I went back to ask. He showed me where the architect had drawn in the possible locations of the ductless heads and he was making the "penetrations". I handed him a 3" PVC sleeve.

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Mar 2014 02:47 AM

Posted By ICFHybrid on 30 Mar 2014 01:39 AM

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes? I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable.

Why do you have a fixation with Taiwan? Ductless minis are used the world over with good results, including right here in the US. I hope you can understand, that in terms of installing a ductless mini in the US, Taiwan has little to nothing to do with it.

so you should be promoting window units, too,

And, what is your fixation with that? You keep telling people what they should be promoting? Window units are noisy and they block a window. They're not at all the same as ductless minis. Your logic is pushing the bizarre on this.

I will spell it out to you.  Lbear asked for an example.  The only example I have is Taiwan.  I am sorry if that offends your sense of decency.  Also, as previously stated, people mentioned Asia as a place where they are used, so that justifies their use in the US.

Why would a "window" unit block a window?  For a new home or whenever you are installing a mini split, you have to have something on the wall, so wherever you were planning to put a minisplit, put your "window" unit.  Presumably, you don't have a window in the same location as your mini split, and if it is new construction, just put an additional hole in the wall.

What I am telling you is that many people don't see the big difference between mini splits and window units.  they are individual units designed to heat/cool a room or small area.  They have the blower location in the unit.  The only difference I see is that the compressor is located in the "window" unit, and the mini split has a separate compressor to help mitigate noise.  Not a huge difference.

ba_icf, you can't argue with stupid ignorant fools ...... besides most of these stupid ignorant fools on this forum are nothing more than sorry ass low life bottom feeding spammers!

Posted By ICFHybrid on 30 Mar 2014 09:01 AM

The only example I have is Taiwan.

Why would a "window" unit block a window?

the mini split has a separate compressor to help mitigate noise. Not a huge difference.

I hope you understand, that when you say things like this, it puts you outside the bounds of rational discussion on this topic.

If you want to have a rational discussion about being green, you definitely need to come to the stark realization when you build a 6,000 sq ft house, it isn't green in any sense of the definition.  why don't we ask 1000 green experts, and see if they think building a home that is 6,000 sq ft is green for the environment.  it doesn't matter if it is a net zero home.  you will probably only have 2 people living in your 6,000 sq ft house.  I would be surprised if you could find one person who thinks that this situation is green.

Greener than thou, is the real point here.

Mini's are like panel radiators; designed for retrofit and "the rest of the world" living in spaces averaging well under 900 sq.ft. Yes they can do more, but it isn't easy. Some builders and DIYers feel great just getting those nasty tradesmen out of the equation, but for multistory residential systems some kind of duct work is mandatory, if only to satisfy IAQ.

The bigger the home the more energy required in total. People will build them, people will buy them, so make them as Green as you can, within reason. Generally, poor people don't build new houses and rich people don't live in small ones.

R-13 insulation? I don't think so...

Some science would be refreshing, and not regurgitating elementary formulas from a book...where is Dana?

Double the on-line price is reasonable, unless you don't care if the installer is in business when you need service in 5 or 10 years.

Posted By ricky_005 on 30 Mar 2014 03:59 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Mar 2014 02:47 AM

Posted By ICFHybrid on 30 Mar 2014 01:39 AM

Why don't you travel to Taiwan during the summer and ask random people to check out their homes? I will gather that you will find that it is not that comfortable.

Why do you have a fixation with Taiwan? Ductless minis are used the world over with good results, including right here in the US. I hope you can understand, that in terms of installing a ductless mini in the US, Taiwan has little to nothing to do with it.

so you should be promoting window units, too,

And, what is your fixation with that? You keep telling people what they should be promoting? Window units are noisy and they block a window. They're not at all the same as ductless minis. Your logic is pushing the bizarre on this.

I will spell it out to you.  Lbear asked for an example.  The only example I have is Taiwan.  I am sorry if that offends your sense of decency.  Also, as previously stated, people mentioned Asia as a place where they are used, so that justifies their use in the US.

Why would a "window" unit block a window?  For a new home or whenever you are installing a mini split, you have to have something on the wall, so wherever you were planning to put a minisplit, put your "window" unit.  Presumably, you don't have a window in the same location as your mini split, and if it is new construction, just put an additional hole in the wall.

What I am telling you is that many people don't see the big difference between mini splits and window units.  they are individual units designed to heat/cool a room or small area.  They have the blower location in the unit.  The only difference I see is that the compressor is located in the "window" unit, and the mini split has a separate compressor to help mitigate noise.  Not a huge difference.

ba_icf, you can't argue with stupid ignorant fools ...... besides most of these stupid ignorant fools on this forum are nothing more than sorry ass low life bottom feeding spammers!

I know, but it is like a train wreck, I can't seem to turn away.  I was going to talk about PTAC's, but they would say that is a different beast, too.  Thousands of hotels use them, too.  Cheaper than minisplits, lower maintenance, heats and cools, complete unit, etc.  Should be a good candidate.  Relatively low decibel rating. 

it isn't green in any sense of the definition

Of course it is. Why do you persist in making claims that aren't true?

Here is a definition of green building;
"Green building is the practice of creating structures and using processes that are environmentally responsible and resource-efficient throughout a building's life-cycle from siting to design, construction, operation, maintenance, renovation and deconstruction."
I certainly did that. Most people build as much house as they can afford. My new home is a tenth of what I can afford and it uses half the energy new houses around me use.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 30 Mar 2014 09:43 PM

it isn't green in any sense of the definition

Of course it is. Why do you persist in making claims that aren't true?

Here is a definition of green building;
"Green building is the practice of creating structures and using processes that are environmentally responsible and resource-efficient throughout a building's life-cycle from siting to design, construction, operation, maintenance, renovation and deconstruction."
I certainly did that. Most people build as much house as they can afford. My new home is a tenth of what I can afford and it uses half the energy new houses around me use.

I already stated that you were building it in a green manner which isn't the same as being green.  I tried to explain the difference to you, but I guess it is too complicated.  So, if a billionaire only builds a 1,000,000 sq ft house, and uses no energy not produced on site, I guess you would still say that he is green because he could've built a 10,000,000 sq ft house, and it is using less energy than the local mall, so it is very green.

What does your wealth have to do with being green?  That is one of the most idiotic things I have heard in a long time.  Just because you choose to build a 6,000 sq ft house instead of a 60,000 sq ft house doesn't make you green.  Being green is not building at all or using an existing structure.  If you took any current 6,000 sq ft house and did nothing to do it, the energy usage would never come close to the energy that you used to build your home. 

Get your head out of the sand.  You are not being green.  You are using green methods.  They are not the same.  I guess I should type more slowly so you can understand what I am saying.

It doesn't appear as if you have any knowledge whatsoever of what being green is all about

I agree that your concept of green and my concept of green are not the same.  you are in fantasy land.  being truly green means having the lowest impact to the earth.  that means not building a 6,000 sq ft home for two people, but you don't understand that simple concept.  it is okay.  we can't teach everyone everything.

if you can really build a home 10 times what you did, i would suggest that you buy into a better area, so that you don't need to have a steel entry door for security.  strange place where you have 6,000 sq ft homes, and you are worried about home invasion.  in my neighborhood of much more modest sizes, people leave their garage doors open all day with thousands of dollars of sporting gear easily accessible, and heaven forbid, they sometimes leave their doors unlocked, too.

Here is an article that maybe explains it better than me, but I am sure you will continue to disagree.

http://www.alternet.org/story/61523/big_houses_are_not_green%3A_america%27s_mcmansion_problem/

strange place where you have 6,000 sq ft homes, and you are worried about home invasion.

Thieves sorta go where the money is.

in my neighborhood of much more modest sizes, people leave their garage doors open all day

See my comment above.

You will note that your "alternative" article talked about energy-wasting mcmansions. I would concur with that problem. That's hardly what mine is.

being truly green means having the lowest impact to the earth.

It really doesn't. If that were the case we would all live in yurts and forego overseas trips.

Maybe you can come up with a better definition of what "green" is.