Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Apr 2014 11:31 AM

you may want them to be green castles.

The biggest issues with castles are not expecting too much comfort from solid masonry construction and trying not to transport the materials too far. Best to use stone from on-site. Imagine the dunnage in packaging up stone blocks and transporting them.

Why does that matter how far you transport the material?  If someone needs a huge masonry castle to host his parties and to store his medieval artifacts, who are you to criticize if that person brings their stone from England or Europe or from one of the old great castle locations.  What if that person doesn't use any heating or cooling, then he is being green, right?

Many people don't like to hear this, but the greenest thing you can do in your life is to not have kids. Anything else you do or don't do (personally) pales in comparison.

Posted By jonr on 01 Apr 2014 04:30 PM
Many people don't like to hear this, but the greenest thing you can do in your life is to not have kids. Anything else you do or don't do (personally) pales in comparison.

While a controversial comment, he is correct. In 1960 the world population was 3 Billion. Fast forward just 50 years and we hit 7 Billion in 2011.

There is a green movement that views population growth as one of the biggest threats to this planet's well being. I am not agreeing with their assessment but the numbers are the numbers.

That is why arguing about who is more greener or what is more greener is a LOST CAUSE because it spans the whole gamut. That's why the argument has no absolute conclusion. The definition is too broad and like JONR brought up, the biggest cause of global warming, pollution, carbon footprints, embodied energy, etc., are people. The more kids/people you have, the more it contributes to the footprint they will leave behind.

If it's even remotely possible, going back to the original topic of "buying mini splits" would be better suited. Instead of arguing about who is greener.

Posted By jonr on 01 Apr 2014 04:30 PM
Many people don't like to hear this, but the greenest thing you can do in your life is to not have kids. Anything else you do or don't do (personally) pales in comparison.

Oh, boy. We're off the reservation now! And I thought you were the timid one! You can't argue with the logic, if being Green is about using resources...

Posted By jonr on 01 Apr 2014 04:30 PM
Many people don't like to hear this, but the greenest thing you can do in your life is to not have kids. Anything else you do or don't do (personally) pales in comparison.

I have heard an even worse suggestion, commit suicide, but that is a little extreme just to be green.

Posted By ba_icf on 01 Apr 2014 11:56 AM

Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 01 Apr 2014 09:54 AM
So you have to be a Communist to be "perfectly" Green?

Seriously, is that your take on my comments.  Basically, if you do a bunch of small green things, and one thing that is totally not green, then I would say you aren't truly green.  If I recycle a few cans and compost my food waste, and then build a 6,000 sq ft home for me and my wife, and then I would say you are trying to give the impression that you are green, but you aren't.  It is the same for the Tesla car.  They profess to be green, but a majority of the owners have the maximum sized battery which is about the least green thing you can do with respect to building an electric car.  It is a status symbol of being green.  It is the same people who complain about wearing fur coats while wearing leather shoes.

Just don't be a hypocrite.  Show some consistency.  If you don't show some consistency with regards to a particular definition, then most people would say that you don't satisfy the definition.

Logical and valid. Waste is subjective. Anything that doesn't pay for itself can be said to be waste. Art, music, flowers...who needs them. Free-will is something you cannot take away from human beings, it is being human. I would no more tell another man how to build his house, or how big it should be, than have him do the same for me. Without individual freedom there is no collective freedom and there is just a "mini-split" between communism and fascism. Both tend to insist others follow the herd. Objectivity is the first thing lost is a crowd, so I appreciate a new point of view and a logical challenge to the status quo, as we pretend that we are doing something "new" in being frugal. There is certainly a valid argument it assessing the total resources invested in being "Green" and the definition is obviously debatable. If sustainability is the lynch pin of Green, then you and Jonr have it. Some cultures seem to be quite happy living cheek-to-jowl, ours is not that culture, generally speaking. In many ways, the heat pump--especially ground source--is the modern equivalent of a new fur coat. Showing off how chic one can be. Green hypocrisy is like any other, but hypocrisy infers intent and I generally don't give our race that much credit. Free to choose, and proud of it.

Why does that matter how far you transport the material?

It takes energy to transport materials. Part of green building is using resources closer to home that require less transport waste. Same goes for excess packing materials.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 02 Apr 2014 01:13 AM

Why does that matter how far you transport the material?

It takes energy to transport materials. Part of green building is using resources closer to home that require less transport waste. Same goes for excess packing materials.

it was a rhetorical question.  so, does transporting more material take more energy or less energy.  does a bigger house use more materials than a smaller house? hmmmm.....

Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 01 Apr 2014 08:09 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 01 Apr 2014 11:56 AM

Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 01 Apr 2014 09:54 AM
So you have to be a Communist to be "perfectly" Green?

Seriously, is that your take on my comments.  Basically, if you do a bunch of small green things, and one thing that is totally not green, then I would say you aren't truly green.  If I recycle a few cans and compost my food waste, and then build a 6,000 sq ft home for me and my wife, and then I would say you are trying to give the impression that you are green, but you aren't.  It is the same for the Tesla car.  They profess to be green, but a majority of the owners have the maximum sized battery which is about the least green thing you can do with respect to building an electric car.  It is a status symbol of being green.  It is the same people who complain about wearing fur coats while wearing leather shoes.

Just don't be a hypocrite.  Show some consistency.  If you don't show some consistency with regards to a particular definition, then most people would say that you don't satisfy the definition.

Logical and valid. Waste is subjective. Anything that doesn't pay for itself can be said to be waste. Art, music, flowers...who needs them. Free-will is something you cannot take away from human beings, it is being human. I would no more tell another man how to build his house, or how big it should be, than have him do the same for me. Without individual freedom there is no collective freedom and there is just a "mini-split" between communism and fascism. Both tend to insist others follow the herd. Objectivity is the first thing lost is a crowd, so I appreciate a new point of view and a logical challenge to the status quo, as we pretend that we are doing something "new" in being frugal. There is certainly a valid argument it assessing the total resources invested in being "Green" and the definition is obviously debatable. If sustainability is the lynch pin of Green, then you and Jonr have it. Some cultures seem to be quite happy living cheek-to-jowl, ours is not that culture, generally speaking. In many ways, the heat pump--especially ground source--is the modern equivalent of a new fur coat. Showing off how chic one can be. Green hypocrisy is like any other, but hypocrisy infers intent and I generally don't give our race that much credit. Free to choose, and proud of it.

I am all for choice.  I am not making decisions on my home based on being green, so I myself am not very green.  I don't have an issue in general with what people do when they build their homes.  I am mostly questioning the classification of those decisions.  I just find it strange that people want to be viewed in a certain manner when they don't exhibit those qualities for their major decisions.  It is like the person who orders steak and a fully loaded potato, but orders a diet coke in order to watch his weight.  If your main course has tons of calories, then there is a problem.  If someone got a small main course splurged with a small dessert, people wouldn't have the same feelings about the person saying that they were watching their weight.  I don't care if people eat 4,000 calories at a sitting, just don't tell me you are trying to lose weight.

"In many ways, the heat pump--especially ground source--is the modern equivalent of a new fur coat. Showing off how chic one can be."

I don't think anyone ever purchased a fur coat to save money that their denim jackets were consuming. Folks buy heat pumps around here because it saves them thousands vs their propane and oil furnaces.

Posted By jdebree on 10 Mar 2014 06:08 PM
Anyone know what the deal is with online mini-split sales? I was going to go that route, until I read the fine print, especially that the equipment has to be installed by a licensed A/C contractor. So, I got a number of quotes from area dealers, only to find that they want double the price of buying the equipment online. The major manufacturers all point out that they don't condone online sale of their products. Where are the online retailers getting the equipment? Gray market? I would think that the manufacturers would make sure they couldn't get product to sell if they are really opposed to it.

Meanwhile, I can't find a licensed A/C guy who will touch equipment I order online. I even had one of the guys that quoted the whole system tell me that no licensed A/C guy would install it for me. I guess everyone who buys them online does their own installation, and takes their chances?

As for saving money by installing heat pumps. Some do, some don't. They may lower their fuel bill, but the capital may not come back to them. this is particularly true in cold climates with ground source HP. Air-to-air HP are coming along. I am think of a recent consultation in which $100,000 wells were dug through a few hundred feet of limestone to serve a new home with 50% glass, albeit German triple-pain. If was a fur coat. Don't get me wrong, I use heat pumps, own heat pumps and once owned a fir coat. Just conceding a valid point and trying to help with the politics. I come here to watch Dana do math faster in his head than I can follow with my 10 key...ehehehee. The science is fascinating but the balance of science and resources, human and material, takes judgement, wisdom even, and that is a precious resource indeed. The personal attacks are unnecessary and counterproductive in persuasive argument. Otherwise, a great thread.

I am not making decisions on my home based on being green, so I myself am not very green.

Well, that's exactly what I've been saying. So far, the only knowledge of green building you've exhibited has to do with the size of a home. That is a simplistic linear relationship. You don't seem to understand much beyond that. What I've done is build a larger home with an environmental impact the size of or smaller than average homes.
You might want to look up some aspects of green building in an attempt to understand how these concepts shape both the present and the future.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 02 Apr 2014 10:19 AM

I am not making decisions on my home based on being green, so I myself am not very green.

Well, that's exactly what I've been saying. So far, the only knowledge of green building you've exhibited has to do with the size of a home. That is a simplistic linear relationship. You don't seem to understand much beyond that. What I've done is build a larger home with an environmental impact the size of or smaller than average homes.
You might want to look up some aspects of green building in an attempt to understand how these concepts shape both the present and the future.

Green !== Green Building   Green !== Green Building   Green !== Green Building   Green !== Green Building

You are the funniest person here.  we were never talking about me being green.  there was never a discussion of that.  it was you trying to declare that building a huge house that is 6,000 is green. Then you keep saying green building.  I seem to be talking to a robot. 

If you want someone to learn, please start with yourself.  You keep claiming others don't know anything, and your lack of knowledge is evident in each and every one of your posts.

You keep repeating that you are building a large home with the impact of a smaller home.  I have acknowledged that many times.  I have to keep repeating.  You are doing green building, but you are not being green

You might want to look up some aspects of being green in an attempt to understand how these concepts shape both the present and the future.  If everyone built 6,000 sq ft homes, we would run out of the world's resources very very quickly. 

we would run out of the world's resources very very quickly.

If every one of them had an environmental impact the same or less than average, I guess we'd be to the good, huh?

A follow-up on my installation-

They were very easy to install, for the most part. I spent a few days drilling and finagling to get everything just right before the A/C guy came in. The quotes I got were based upon me drilling the holes; I can't imagine what they would have charged for that.

Both the indoor and outdoor units are very light. I mounted the outdoor units about 3' off of the ground to keep them above the mud, leaves, and grass clippings. Mounted on the ground, you'd have to lay in the dirt to access the refrigerant valves. At 80 lbs., I could easily lift them up onto their brackets. The indoor units are very light- 22 lbs., I believe. The instructions that came with them was rudimentary at best. Although they said to mount the indoor unit to the wall and then wire it, this proved nearly impossible, at least for my fat American fingers. Much easier to pull the wire through, wire it up on the floor, then hang it on the wall. I still haven't figured out how to remove the cover without it seeming to be on the brink of breaking something.

It took the A/C guys about 3 hours to cut and flare the lines, vacuum them down, pressure test, and test run them. One had plenty of freon, the other one needed some added because of the longer refrigerant line. After watching all this, it would be simple to do with the right equipment. Still, they earned their money and I gladly paid them. They warranty their part of the installation, as well.

I'm really impressed with the way they run. On the lowest fan setting, I can't hear the indoor unit standing right in front of it. On high, it's still a lot quieter than our refrigerator. Outdoors- same thing. If there's any other noise going on, you can't hear the compressor at all. This is important to us, as we like to sit out even in hot weather, and I'd rather not listen to the heat pump the whole time. I can't vouch for their performance until the real heat of summer gets here. It was about 80 degrees when we ran them, and they quickly cooled the rooms down. We had to keep the windows open to keep them running. All of our insulation might have something to do with that.

Right and like we indicated previously, R410A and the equipment to use it can be purchased online often for less than some pros charge for this service. Of course, it helps if you are capable of reading and accomplishing technical instructions and it is always nice if you conform with the EPA requirements too so as to not damage the environment. Some pros are challenged in these areas. Glad to hear that you happy with how your project turned out.

Being that I don't feel like reading all 6 pages after reading one page, let me leave you with this since the OP wants to bitch and moan about how I as an HVAC contractor am making a killing.

GO YELL AT RESTAURANTS!!!!
I bought a bud light yesterday for $4.00, I could have bought it for $.50 and opened it myself in less than one minute. OMG they took a $3.50 per minute markup to open my beer at the restaurant, that equates to $210 per hour opening beer cans!!! Now I think that 800% markup is much worse than anything a contractor generally charges yet im sure you eat at restaurants all the time and don't complain when you see the bill for your steak that you paid $25 for but cost $5 at the store, or a burger that was $12 that you could have made for $4.

Stop looking at HVAC as a piece of equipment and look at it as a service, you plainly are frustrated and how much time have you spend online complaining when you could be working and making money to just pay a pro to do the install. You want a warranty, then pay for the proper equipment and proper install or take the risk but don't go complaining to the manufacture or the guy who started up the system. My policy here is that we do not start up or work on or install homeowner supplied equipment and if for some odd reason we do, its because we gave them our normal price and then deducted what they paid for the equipment and then made them sign a disclaimer stating no warranty on labor or equipment from us. If you find a qualified guy to start up and charge the system(which I highly doubt you will) then you got lucky.

Since you took the trouble to flame me, I'll reply. The real purpose of my post was to try to determine whether or not A/C equipment sold on-line was the same equipment as a dealer sells, or if it was 'gray' market or some other shady deal. I'm building my own house partly to save money, but also for the experience. I lot of things I did myself probably weren't cost-effective, but I did them anyway. At least I know they are done right. Although there are plenty of talented, skillful, conscientious tradesmen out there, there are also a lot of hacks, and being new to the area, I'd rather not find out who the hacks are with my hard-earned dollars.

I did find a licensed contractor to do the final hook-up, and he did very good work. He made over $200 an hour for the time he was here, and it was well worth it. If I had to pay him to do all of the grunt work, i would have had to settle for a bag of ice and a fan instead.

If you want to save even more money just install window units....basically the same thing.

1) They're hard to put in casement windows.
2) Do they make them in 26 SEER that make heat down to -13 F.?
3) They call them 'wall-shakers' for a reason.

Comparing a window unit to a mini-split is like comparing a Fiat to a Ferrari. They're both cars, right?

I guess this thread has run its course. I had a good experience (so far). Was it worth it? Yes. Would I do it again? Probably not. I learned what I wanted to learn, I know my HVAC system very well now, but it probably was barely cost-effective in the total scheme of things. The same could probably said for the rest of my build, but i wouldn't trade the experience for anything.