Sky, it's too bad you didn't read back a little further. I personnally think this was some of the most honest DIY dialogue we've seen on the matter. OP actually pulled permits and was even handed about what he saved and the effort he invested.

Jdbree, how many hours did the contractor take to put your splits into operation?

This move towards more efficient envelopes and ductless minis must be having an impact on the traditional HVAC purveyors. I just got the largest home builder yet interested in ductless minis because of what he saw at my place. Basically, the plan is to improve the envelopes and install ductless minis using his own guys and then have a trusted tech come by and commission them. You can imagine the savings in simply not having to schedule the sheet metal and heating boys.

If doing a multi-zone (3 zones) ductless mini split utilizing the ceiling cassette setup. Are those units less efficient than the wall mounted units?

With the 3 zones, one can adjust each zone based on the rooms needs and they look a lot cleaner than the wall mounted.

The wall mounted units seem to have the highest efficiency by far, and have better low temperature capability as well. They need to work on that.

It took the contractor about 3 hours to connect and commission two minis. Everything was in place, the wiring was done, and the refrigerant lines were in place, but not connected at either end. They made the connections, cut and flared the excess line length, tested for leaks, ran the vacuum pump, and added freon to the one unit based on instructions mounted right on the unit. You add 1.62 oz. for every five feet of line over 25 feet. They put the freon tank on a scale to measure it. They were meticulous in their work, and made sure everything was working, and that i was happy before they left. All that's left is covers for the refrigerant lines, which I'll do along with my siding.

Thanks jdebree, the reason I was curious was because I had suggested an amount in the ball park sometime ago. One thing though; What you pay per hour and what the contractor makes per hour are entirely different.

I'm well aware of that. I had my own business, and some weeks it worked out that I was making about $5.00 an hour. There's a lot of overhead in a small business. I have a friend with a roofing business, and their single biggest expense is workmen's comp.

As I said before jdebree, yours has been one of the most evenhanded evaluations of a DIY project. Fare well on your home.

I will weigh in on this. I ordered the first of two Rheem units from AC whole salers in 2010. This was because I got the whole setup for $1600 and I was looking at around $10,000 for the install and splitting my house into two zones from a reputably installer. I talked to a couple of techs and one told me I would go to jail for ordering one, so I wrote him off, and the other one said he would only do work on it as a favor to my father. I later found out my mother had him put a system in and had problems it the terms of a complete blow out and none of it was covered under warranty. I ran into a random tech doing work on a system just like the one I ordered and asked him if he would do an install. He said that my best bet with the understanding I had at that point was to do an install and then do a service call for the leak check and fill.

So without delay I did the complete install. I borrowed a vacuum pump and used CO2 instead of nitrogen when brazing the lines. I called a local place for a service call, since the nice man I talked to was hired out to another region at that point, and they responded. The tech asked me a couple of questions and checked temps. At that point it had been installed for 2 days and the R410 was already running through the system. He said everything was great and that since the line set was only 20 feet he figured that was why the numbers were right with the r410 that was in the unit. Cost me $49.

A year later my other unit went out and I replaced that with another unit from acwholesalers,com. This time the lineset was about 50 feet and I replaced some ductwork. The charge of the system set me back $150.

I have had zero issue with either system until last year when the siding crew hit the refrigerant lines and they had to get them rebrazed and the units topped off. At this rate even if I had a warranty issue it would be damn cheaper just to replace the whole thing again or go with a minisplit. The wiring on the mini split is easier and I will be doing this for my addition.

A quick follow-up- I had the insulation put in the attic (R-49 stabilized cellulose), and the difference is amazing. The outdoor temperature was 91 F., the thermostat was set at 74 F, and I was running the 12K unit in the main part of the house. The lowest temp I found was 71.9, the highest was 72.2. Oddly enough, the lowest reading was the farthest from the head unit; 3 rooms away. We always keep internal doors open, unless we have company, so I think that one unit will handle all of our heating and cooling needs except in the most extreme weather.

A few things about the house: ICF construction from full basement to eaves, 12" raised heel trusses, decent double pane windows, very close attention to sealing all penetrations, including the basement and attic, very little solar gain in the summer. We get a little morning sun, and that's about it due to orientation and heavy woods.

I did have an incident with the insulation contractor. Unbeknownst to him, I set up a laser level in the attic, and made numerous marks at the insulation depth. Upon inspection, there were large areas as much as 6" low. That's an R-20 hit! When I pointed this out, they blamed it on the new guy, and finished the job properly, using another 20 bags in the process. Caught in the act, they filled everything to well above my marks, so I came out somewhat better than R-49. I've found that I've had to keep an eye on subs to make sure they do things right, and the way I want it. I can't imagine GC'ing an entire build!

That is why when you find subs you trust, you stick with them, even if they are a bit more expensive. If as a GC you work with those subs over time and they know you are going to verify, they are even more likely to do it right. If I find I have to babysit a sub to get something done right, I don’t use them again.
Before they started blowing insulation, they should have stuck on height gauges at least one for every 50 square feet. That way they know they hit their targets. They should also be counting bags and know how many they expect to use 20 bags = about 250 sf of roof at R49. Depending on the size of the roof, they should have known they were off that amount.
An insulator I used in the past used to list on the final bill, number of bags estimated, number of bags used, # inches expected original and # inches settled.

Cheers,
Eric

"That is why when you find subs you trust, you stick with them, even if they are a bit more expensive."

And there is the rub. In a thread about DIY HVAC, I don't think anyone is hiring the "bit more expensive" guy.

I've found that I've had to keep an eye on subs to make sure they do things right, and the way I want it. I can't imagine GC'ing an entire build!

Professional contractors have the benefit of dangling the next meal ticket. Homeowner/contractors should know upfront that it is VERY difficult to get performance from the subs when they know it's the only time they will work for you. Most of them aren't bright enough to figure out what your pointed thumbs down on their performance could mean, both through word of mouth and in future blogs or websites you might put up.

Even subs that had been good performers for years with my construction manager felt the situation was different enough with me to fall short.
Oh, and by the way, when you foil one of them that was trying to rip you off, be especially attentive to your tools and other things as they clean up and shortly thereafter. Ladders, cords, etc. Even minor vandalism. Oops.

" Most of them aren't bright enough to figure out what your pointed thumbs down on their performance could mean......"

Most subs have been burned by multiple homeowners and most have had carrots dangled in front of them about future opportunities that never materialized. Most homeowners are not bright enough to run their own job or know a fair price if it hit 'em in the beak (present company excluded of course .)

You may choose not to employ subs or they may choose not to work for you. Repeated work for the same builder means I have expectaion of how the job will go; I have no such luxury with a homeowner and price accordingly.

The starting point would be mutual respect such as was shared by the minisplit installer and OP. A fair exchange is not a robbery. Suspicion and snide remarks earn invitations to employ someone desperate for work.

Most subs have been burned by multiple homeowners

Business owners don't "get burned". They are the ones in control. They are the ones screwing up.

"Business owners don't "get burned". They are the ones in control. They are the ones screwing up."
Perhaps; if trusting someone is screwing up. That is trusting they'll pay on time, trusting they'll keep a good job pace going, trusting they'll be considerate of my time, trusting they'll manage other trades correctly and do things in the proper order etc. etc. When these things don't happen it can cost a business anything from a little time (which is ultimately what we sell) to a lot of money (on one project the homeowner/builder took years to move forward and as the US dollar fell, my cost of sheet metal soared).

When these things don't happen it can cost a business anything from a little time (which is ultimately what we sell)

Sometimes, I wonder about you, Joe. You're not selling your time. That is a self-serving attitude common with the low level, sole proprietor "business owners" I've seen a lot of lately.

You are selling me performance; solutions to MY problems. You can gain my respect when you finish the job AS AGREED, on time and on budget.

And, how many times do we need to say there is no "trust" in business? Agreement, performance, payment.

Kind of off topic, but I went through a wide variety of experiences when I had my own tool and die business. I got burned a number of times, mostly by other businesses that got in money trouble during the course of a contract. As for subs on my house, I make it clear up-front that as soon as the work is performed per agreement, they will get paid on the spot. It scares me a bit that around here, no one ever puts anything in writing. I wonder what happens when those 'hand-shake' deals fall apart due to a problem with one party or the other? In my business, I always had a detailed contract, spelling out all sorts of specifications and details about payment.

Back on track- I programmed my two minis so that the bigger one runs during the day, keeping the whole house quite comfortable. At night, the bigger one shuts off, and the smaller unit in the bedroom takes over, keeping the bedroom nice and cool. They certainly don't seem to be working very hard.

"You can gain my respect when you finish the job AS AGREED, on time and on budget."

Talk about self serving. We know you hold contractors at large in contempt, but suggesting there is no way for us to get burned, and that our time is somehow seperate from the products we sell is delusional. Man hours spent on one job are hours that can't be spent elsewhere, such as selling "performance and solutions to YOUR problems".

jdbree cites other examples of a business owner getting burned in spite of your assertion that this isn't possible.

jdbree, we've worked with less than a handshake or carefully itemized contract, depending on the scope of the work and the level of trust. It is my assertion that contracts can keep friends friendly when working with them. It is routine to work without a contract for property managers or home rehab folks who do a fairly high volume of business with us it would be unusual at best to work without on someone performing as their own builder.

Glad to hear the minis are working well for you.

Talk about self serving.

That's right, Joe. It's not about YOU. It's about ME, the customer, remember? Maybe you've heard that before.
My obligation is to pay. Your obligation is to do the work AS AGREED.

Do you see how that breaks down when you do work on "less than a handshake"?

Ha Ha. No wonder you talk so much about "getting burned".

I'm fully aware a company has lots of costs that have to be added in the price. I have no problem with that. Neither do I have a problem with the fact the company wants to make a profit.
What I do have a 'problem' with is the continously stating/advertising the added value. Not just in this thread but also in other threads. The pro states that if something isn't entirely installed by themselves they can't give any guarantee on the complete instalation. Including their own work because that can be affected by a parts of the system that are poorly installed. Often the manufacurer won't give a guarantee for the same reasons. That's all fair to a certain extend.

Very few, if any, of the companies have the guts to give a decent guarantee. If I install part of the system and a part I didn't install fails after 5 years the contractor blames it on me.

But does that same contractor has the guts to give a full everything covered to the last cent guarantee for say at least 10 years? Afterall they designed the system, picked the components and their highly qualified crew installed it. No, if something breaks within that time it's suddenly regular wear and tear. If have ask around for geothermal then I hear all sorts of positive things "Sir our ground loops last a lifetime. 50 years without any problems. Don't worry.". Will they replace the broken groundloop after 30 years? And when they done replacing the horizontal loop will they pay for my totally destoyed garden? That would be added value. Even more added value would be the system just kept working.
Will the plumber pay for my ruined wooden floor because his piping started to leak after 5 years? That would be added value over a DIY job.



There always will be a tension between the contractor and the client. Everybody knows that. Just like everyone knows that added value (almost) always is an empty shell because when the client want to make use of that added value there is very little added value.

Unfortunately the added value often can be compared to:
"A banker lends you an umbrella when the sun is shining and wants it back when it rains"



Just my 2 cents