From a recent client where we did a roof upgrade:

Fujitsu 12k btu seer25/12 Mini-Splits

Last Year Heating Season 2012-2013 – I burned 5 cords of wood and used 75 gallons of heating oil to heat my house during the heating season, a cost of $1,419.
In the Fall, I had any energy audit and had insulation added to my house, with 5 inches of foam insulation in my roof and basement and added two Fujitsu 12k btu seer25/12 hf Model# AOU12RLS2 + wall mounted Model# ASU12RLS2. I have 1600 Sq Ft house. The cost of the mini-split with insulation after rebate ($900 a Piece) was $3,600

This Year Heating Season starting Nov – My mini-splits were so efficient, I hardly used my fire wood (about 20% of the time) and the total cost of heating (Nov thru Mar) was $450, ¾ cord of wood $180 + $270 electricity for the heat pumps. I kept the mini-splits Temp setting around 70 to 72, while I am there, and 66 when I am not. In my case, the two mini-splits heated my entire house (one upstairs and one downstairs. I have a chalet and a pretty much open concept upstairs, except the bedrooms, where I never turned the heat on. (avg 64 to 68 degrees). The upstairs mini-split even heated my 20 by 20 cathedral ceiling at 70 degrees even at 16 below zero. The specification only rates it down to 5 below zero. They produce 16k btu above 20 degrees and 12btu below 20 degrees. I used the wood when it was single or below zero mostly because I have 3 cords of wood I purchased before I bought the mini-splits. These mini-splits are incredible, rated at 378% efficient or about 4 times more efficient than electric heaters. Yes, I can actually tell you they are that efficient, and beat the manufacturing specifications. I have a separate electric meter to measure the actual energy usage, so I know exactly how much they are using and the cost.

Yes, one perspective is that you saved less than 30% of the “pro” installation cost (if your time is worth nothing). Another perspective is that you earned $150/hour to learn something new and accomplish the project to your own personal satisfaction (if it took you 10 hours to save that $1500).  Mini splits can save you significant operational cost.  Like everything, the increased unit acquisition cost has to be carefully weighed against the savings that will result during the time that you will actually benefit from the reduced operational cost before you need a new unit or you move to a new building (and can perhaps realize an increased resale value) to ascertain if this decision has an acceptable personal ROI.

Great story, but hardly a testimonial for mini=split efficiency or ROI.

I read; I improved the enveloped by 500% and my fuel bill went down. It is a good combination, in fact, part of what I did in my own remodel 6 years ago, but the envelope is the main contributor to your excellent success. One could reasonably argue that by improving the envelope one made the mini-split a viable option. With the open floor plan, as in my own, ducted systems would not be an improvement except for your ERV of course.

DIY mini-splits? If you have a set of gauges and a refresher on 410A: http://www.epatest.com/R410A/ because when things break down Uncle "Bob" is never around.

Good point, R410A can be purchased online without a license along with the equipment to properly use it. Of course, you do need to be able to read and accomplish the technical instructions and conform with the EPA requirements. While we don’t recommend doing this, we know several DIYers that have successfully accomplished this too. However, everyone needs to realistically access their own personal limitations and stay well within them.

Posted By Bob I on 27 Mar 2014 02:32 PM
From a recent client where we did a roof upgrade:

Fujitsu 12k btu seer25/12 Mini-Splits

Last Year Heating Season 2012-2013 – I burned 5 cords of wood and used 75 gallons of heating oil to heat my house during the heating season, a cost of $1,419.
In the Fall, I had any energy audit and had insulation added to my house, with 5 inches of foam insulation in my roof and basement and added two Fujitsu 12k btu seer25/12 hf Model# AOU12RLS2 + wall mounted Model# ASU12RLS2. I have 1600 Sq Ft house. The cost of the mini-split with insulation after rebate ($900 a Piece) was $3,600

This Year Heating Season starting Nov – My mini-splits were so efficient, I hardly used my fire wood (about 20% of the time) and the total cost of heating (Nov thru Mar) was $450, ¾ cord of wood $180 + $270 electricity for the heat pumps. I kept the mini-splits Temp setting around 70 to 72, while I am there, and 66 when I am not. In my case, the two mini-splits heated my entire house (one upstairs and one downstairs. I have a chalet and a pretty much open concept upstairs, except the bedrooms, where I never turned the heat on. (avg 64 to 68 degrees). The upstairs mini-split even heated my 20 by 20 cathedral ceiling at 70 degrees even at 16 below zero. The specification only rates it down to 5 below zero. They produce 16k btu above 20 degrees and 12btu below 20 degrees. I used the wood when it was single or below zero mostly because I have 3 cords of wood I purchased before I bought the mini-splits. These mini-splits are incredible, rated at 378% efficient or about 4 times more efficient than electric heaters. Yes, I can actually tell you they are that efficient, and beat the manufacturing specifications. I have a separate electric meter to measure the actual energy usage, so I know exactly how much they are using and the cost.

Are you saying that he wasn't using some kind of ducted heat in his bedrooms, and by using the mini splits, his bedroom temperature was 64-68 degrees?  I am not sure my wife and kids would think that 64-68 degrees is warm enough.  Sounds like a pretty small footprint with a 1600 sq ft two story house.  I don't think most people would think that was all that great from a comfort standpoint.  You can survive for sure with a jacket, but I wouldn't consider it adequate heating.  Definitely not a case that would promote the use of mini splits.

These mini-splits are incredible, rated at 378% efficient or about 4 times more efficient than electric heaters

It's a great situation for minisplits where you have a backup heat source. I have some friends who went from straight wood heat to two head ductless in an old farmhouse and they've never been so happy. It never gets below the heat pumps minimum outdoor temp here and they haven't had to kindle a fire since they got the minis which makes the whole family pretty happy, including busy high school kids. They used to be pretty good at getting low cost wood, but they still spend less using the minis to heat. It's a lifestyle improvement for them. They put both heads on the main floor with one situated right at the stairs to go up. It's not an arrangement I would have thought of, but they say it works great.

"Another perspective is that you earned $150/hour to learn something new and accomplish the project to your own personal satisfaction (if it took you 10 hours to save that $1500). "

You ignored the second half of my quote:

"You may have the same 2 minisplits, but the end product is not the same. Many folks would rather have the appliance backed by a company and not have to mess around with the install."

So it is not only the same product based on the lack of ownership by a repair company, but I would argue that there's no way a consumer such as OP only has 10 hours invested. Heck 10 hours of research maybe.

No, didn’t ignore it, just didn’t consider it relevant since that OP stated that he had a licensed person charge it and sign off on the installation making the product warranty valid and enforceable. Our experience with product warranties is the product more often than not fails after the warranty expires anyhow. True enough, only the OP knows exactly how much time he put into this project and if it was worth it.

Posted By ba_icf on 27 Mar 2014 07:58 PM

Are you saying that he wasn't using some kind of ducted heat in his bedrooms, and by using the mini splits, his bedroom temperature was 64-68 degrees?  I am not sure my wife and kids would think that 64-68 degrees is warm enough.  Sounds like a pretty small footprint with a 1600 sq ft two story house.  I don't think most people would think that was all that great from a comfort standpoint.  You can survive for sure with a jacket, but I wouldn't consider it adequate heating.  Definitely not a case that would promote the use of mini splits.

It's important read and parse the sentences a bit more carefully:

" I have a chalet and a pretty much open concept upstairs, except the bedrooms, where I never turned the heat on. (avg 64 to 68 degrees)."

I'm sure if your wife & kids weren't comfortable at 64-68F you could agree to actually turn on the heat to the bedroom zone before retiring.  The mini-splits would still be carrying the lion's share of the load, and the few hours of the year that the zone would have to be on would not carry a huge cost penalty in heating-oil or whatever. 

It's also possible to cheaply micro-zone doored off rooms with radiant cove heaters under occupancy sensor + thermostat control (or programmable T-stat to bring it up to temp only during sleeping hours) to keep it at whatever temp deemed reasonable during the hours it's used without chewing through a bunch of power.

Alternatively you could just turn up the mini-split to 74-75F  before retiring instead of the stated "...mini-splits Temp setting around 70 to 72..." , thus raising the temps in the remote bedrooms to a more tolerable level.

People seem find a way be comfortable without ducted (or micro-zoned) heating all the time.  People also manage to be UNcomfortable even WITH ducted or micro-zoned heating.  Paraphrasing Joe Lstiburek of the Building Science Corporation: About 5% of all people will never be comfortable.

But no matter what you have for heating, a tight higher-R house cures a whole bunch of comfort issues as well or better than any mere heating system can (with the possible exception of radiant floor heating.)  And in a higher-R house (or with just lower loads in the doored off rooms) mini-splits can work just fine, your apparent antipathy toward that approach notwithstanding. Most heating systems out there as-implemented are pretty crappy, pretty remote from "best-practices" on sizing and distribution, but lowering the loads by upgrading the building envelope turns it into a "who cares?" sort of deal.  It reads like that was the experience of Bob_I's anecdotal building retrofitter who now heats primarily with mini-splits. 

Sneer at his choices & sensibilities if you like (many people prefer cooler temps for sleeping), but your stated objections have easy & obvious solutions that don't involve ducts.  It's not up to you or me to tell people how to live, eh?  Nobody but YOU really cares about what you consider to be "adequate heating".  Mini-split based solutions can & do work, and can be implemented in a way that meets code without a ductless head in every room, even if those solutions are not your personal cup o' camelia sinensis.

It is not so much that I don't like mini splits, but I am just countering the argument that they are sufficient for new home construction.  I believe most people who aren't experts at HVAC don't want to have multiple systems in their household, so they would only choose one heating system.  People keep mentioning that mini splits would work fine for new home construction, but most of the information about particular installs shows that they have to do a variety of things to get it to be a reasonable temperature in all living spaces.  I have seen putting fans in walls, using secondary heat, redesigning the floor plan, keeping doors open, etc as possible solutions to making mini splits work.  I am just saying that if people are trying to convince people that they are a reasonable alternative, then they shouldn't have all of these additional requirements.

I am sure that some people have them and love them.  I am just trying to show the other side of the argument.  If those things don't seem reasonable to someone trying to push mini splits, I think it will be a very hard push to convince the average home that they are a valid option versus ducted systems.  I never considered mini splits in my house.  I am just giving another opinion, which all seem valid to me

Just as an FYI, I will have a tight envelope.  I am using radiant heating on Amdeck flooring.  I have ICF walls.  I will use closed cell attic insulation.  I am using tilt/turn windows.  I am using European doors for my entry door, side patio door, and folding door (like a nanawall).  Every window and door opening will be foam sealed.   All penetrations will be foam sealed. 

I will use ducted A/C, but I am mostly using the ducts to bring fresh air into the house and to cycle it around, and I will use my exhaust fans to send the stagnant air out.  I probably will not need to use A/C for my climate.

if people are trying to convince people that they are a reasonable alternative, then they shouldn't have all of these additional requirements.

Green Building is all about doing things a bit differently in ways that make sense and save energy or cost. I have a passive solar, but in order to get there, I redesigned the usual window arrangements and eave construction. Oh, and I installed a Big Ass fan. None of these things are particularly burdensome, but they lead to a significantly lovely environment and loads of energy savings.

There are large areas of the country where ductless minis would be excellent primary heat sources for new construction. One of the benefits here in the Pacific NW is that you get air conditioning where we aren't really used to that. I could build entire tracts of new homes that utilize ductless minis. Please don't respond with the usual load of foolishness about code minimum, etc. That isn't "Green", either.

I realize that this is a green forum, but if we want the general population to accept things, then being green alone won't convince many people.

you aren't being green by building a 6,000 sq ft house, so everyone is making their own choices about what green features they want to adopt or not adopt. 

Convincing someone to change by just spouting propaganda without addressing their concerns won't get anyone to change.  Saying you can build whole tracts of homes with mini splits is just that, talk.   Show me a builder who will build or has built a whole tract with mini splits.  Based on so many arguments here about builders trying to do stuff in the cheapest way that meets code and in conjunction with the many arguments how mini splits are much cheaper than ducted systems and are totally adequate to heat/cool an entire home, it should be easy to convince a builder to change his ways, because every house he builds will cost him less, and presumably, he will sell it for the same amount, so more profit for the builder.

I designed a heating/cooling for a SIP home in Golden Valley, a suburb of Minneapolis. Radiant floors in the lower slab, radiant ceilings in the upper and one mini-split in the upper to cool all. They love it.

It takes all kinds.

you aren't being green by building a 6,000 sq ft house

Of course I am. My home uses a small fraction of the energy other similar homes use.

"No, didn’t ignore it, just didn’t consider it relevant since that OP stated that he had a licensed person charge it and sign off on the installation making the product warranty valid and enforceable."

No you are still ignoring the distinction.This product has a part warranty backed by the manufacturer and labor warranty backed by the HO's wallet. Is it worth 1500? Clearly not to OP. Not everyone feels the same. My point remains; it is not the same product.

Hats off to OP for pulling permits and making the comparison fair.

Posted By ba_icf on 28 Mar 2014 07:20 PM
I realize that this is a green forum, but if we want the general population to accept things, then being green alone won't convince many people.

Building with ICF is not the "norm" and similar negative things said about utilizing mini splits is said about ICF.

Posted By ba_icf on 28 Mar 2014 07:20 PM

 Show me a builder who will build or has built a whole tract with mini splits.  Based on so many arguments here about builders trying to do stuff in the cheapest way that meets code and in conjunction with the many arguments how mini splits are much cheaper than ducted systems and are totally adequate to heat/cool an entire home, it should be easy to convince a builder to change his ways, because every house he builds will cost him less, and presumably, he will sell it for the same amount, so more profit for the builder.

If you visit forums like Green Building Advisor you will see that they already built tract homes using ductless mini splits and employing green building techniques. They are out there. Are they the standard? Of course not, but they do exist, you just have to look a little more to find out.

Most builders are like old dogs. You can't change them. Once they learn the trade, they are not quick to change their methodology. What has changed here in the USA since the 1970s? We are still placing R13 fiberglass batts into 2x4 walls and placing HVAC ductwork in an unconditioned attic. The same as was being done in 1972.

We get it, you dislike mini splits and don't think they belong in new homes. As mentioned, the same can be said about ICF and any other "new" green building technology.

The standard here in the USA is to build a leaky wood frame home and stick in an over-sized ducted HVAC system that will cost you a fortune to run for the life of the home. A new built home that is airtight and highly insulated can be cooled/heated with a ductless mini split. It has been proven time and time again.

Ductless Mini Splits

It is true that the building industry is slow to change, especially here in the rural south. I had one A/C contractor do a 'curb quote' on my house- from his office. Without knowing ANYTHING about my house other than the square footage, he said I would need about 2-1/2 tons for A/C.

As I drive around here, I see new houses going up built the same old way. The inspectors don't pay any attention to air sealing, insulation, hardly anything at all. They have commented about how solid my house is, and that I should be able to heat it with candles.

As for installing the minis, I've learned two things so far. It's a LOT of work putting a 2-1/2" hole through an ICF wall (plan ahead), and apparently they use different stud spacing in Japan, since none of the mounting holes line up with anything. Two of the required holes are 22" apart. I had to order very long tapcons for those.

"As for installing the minis, I've learned two things so far. It's a LOT of work putting a 2-1/2" hole through an ICF wall (plan ahead),"

I had to put one through a retired bank vault once.....didn't give up my day job for safe cracking.

" and apparently they use different stud spacing in Japan, since none of the mounting holes line up with anything. Two of the required holes are 22" apart. I had to order very long tapcons for those."

True Dat, though with some of the products you can just make new holes in the mounting bracket.

Posted By jdebree on 29 Mar 2014 07:41 AM
It is true that the building industry is slow to change, especially here in the rural south. I had one A/C contractor do a 'curb quote' on my house- from his office. Without knowing ANYTHING about my house other than the square footage, he said I would need about 2-1/2 tons for A/C.

As I drive around here, I see new houses going up built the same old way. The inspectors don't pay any attention to air sealing, insulation, hardly anything at all. They have commented about how solid my house is, and that I should be able to heat it with candles.

As for installing the minis, I've learned two things so far. It's a LOT of work putting a 2-1/2" hole through an ICF wall (plan ahead), and apparently they use different stud spacing in Japan, since none of the mounting holes line up with anything. Two of the required holes are 22" apart. I had to order very long tapcons for those.

Did you put a 3" PVC sleeve into the ICF wall PRIOR to the pour for the mini split?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Mar 2014 09:05 PM

you aren't being green by building a 6,000 sq ft house

Of course I am. My home uses a small fraction of the energy other similar homes use.

I am stunned by this comment.  I guess you are one of the very people who believe Tom Brady and Gisele are being green building a 14,000 sq ft home for 4 people, because they used green materials and recycling some water, etc.

You are building your house in a green manner, but you are not being green by building a 6,000 sq ft home.  They are not the same thing.  How much energy did it take to build your home?  It is the same argument as Tesla drivers.  The impact of anything is the energy to build it and the energy to use and maintain it.  You can't just use one side of the cost analysis to say you are green or not.