Just purchased under unusual circumstances a two story with basement cinder block building that the main floor was used as a store front with apartment unstairs, basement used as storage for the business. I wanted to ask for suggestions or ideas from you on how to insulate (on the outside) and cover the block for less maintenance and to make it more appealing to look at? I dont think I want to use vinyl siding unless there is something new I dont know about as the older type siding doesn't look good to me and I want to dress this building up in a quality way as it will be rented or used by myself for some type of business. I appreciate any ideas or suggestions you fellows might have. Thanks in advance. I may be able to do the insulating on the inside but as I said was purchased under unusual circumstances and I haven't inspected enough yet to know my options. I will need to cover three exterior walls as there is a fire wall between this building and the next.The block is painted so will have to be prepped for stucko with lathe and possibly removing what paint can be removed. I dont know the process.

I'm not used to this forum style as far as posting,,, looks like i jumbled part of my text. Let me know if my questions aren't clear and I will repost..

Thanks again for any help.

Posted By B_Edwards on 04 Aug 2012 04:52 PM
Just purchased under unusual circumstances a two story with basement cinder block building that the main floor was used as a store front with apartment unstairs, basement used as storage for the business. I wanted to ask for suggestions or ideas from you on how to insulate (on the outside) and cover the block for less maintenance and to make it more appealing to look at? I dont think I want to use vinyl siding unless there is something new I dont know about as the older type siding doesn't look good to me and I want to dress this building up in a quality way as it will be rented or used by myself for some type of business. I appreciate any ideas or suggestions you fellows might have. Thanks in advance. I may be able to do the insulating on the inside but as I said was purchased under unusual circumstances and I haven't inspected enough yet to know my options. I will need to cover three exterior walls as there is a fire wall between this building and the next.The block is painted so will have to be prepped for stucko with lathe and possibly removing what paint can be removed. I dont know the process.

B;
Stucco is the best option, no need to remove paint or add lath as long as it is not peeling , just use a bonding agent (link) on the wall first
or
use an EIFS system laminating foam to block and then texture.

Stucco is the easiest BUT most contractors don't use the highest insulating foams so you have to tell them what you want and depending on your local codes, you may have some limitations on the thickness of insulation you can put on. Where I am we are limited to 4" on an old brick or block.

Here is a picture of the building. The file size is limited so the definition isn't the greatest. I appreciate any ideas or suggestions.I think it can be made into a nice building and also more efficient with less effort in keeping it up. I want to thank you for your replies and suggestions.

Something to determine before continuing the discussion is whether adding thickness at the exterior violate setback zoning rules, which puts a potential constraint on the solutions. (It looks as if you may already be at zero setback on the street-frontage side.)

Climate/location also affects what makes sense.

I will find out as soon as I can. It could be a few days before I know but what you say is a concern and will definatley be part of the overall answer. I appreciate your replying. Thanks

Was finally able to go in and inspect the building today. Block for all four walls and inside appears to be covered with mortar and then skimmed with plaster so no insulation unless the block has the old style pellet insulation inside the block. I had hoped the walls would have studs and insulation but it may be an easier job as it is. Basement is damp but doesn't appear to have water coming in, I am assuming it's condensation. (might consider digging up two walls and spraying with Tuff-n-Dry and fiber board) . I hope you guys dont mind me bouncing ideas off of you as i have been impressed with some of the knowledge on here. The older I get the more fanatical I get about doing things right.

The business portion should have fewer hours of operation, so somewhat less insulation is acceptable. Especially if you insulate the inside to minimize thermal mass (to allow setback to work well).

Better air sealing, better windows and ceiling and floor insulation should be straight forward.

and the zip-code/climate zone is...?

So in this situation where would the best place for the insulation to be given the building usage, inside or outside? I still think outside if possible.

The building is located in northwest NC. I remember back in the 80's we had one week of below 0 for over a week, a few days of 25 below without the wind. Unusual here but in the mountains with lots of humidity it fells more like western NY, wind seems to blow non stop all winter. I say that because i have worked outside my entire life, climbed trees for 20 years, grew up on a dairy farm and worked.





The building will need new windows for sure . The building front faces almost due south so some consideration will have to be given to those windows the other windows not shown in photo will never have direct sun on them.


I like the idea of doing the insulation on the outside but haven't got anything from the town yet on the restriction. The town i think will flexible somewhat because of the benefit of making the building look better, we will see.


Should close next week and will have a key for myself . I'll post more pictures with better detail then. Thanks again for taking the time to read this and reply.

Even at the top of Mt. Mitchell I doubt there has been any week in the past 50 years where it didn't break 0F for a whole week, though there may have been weeks where the daily lows were all below 0F. (Weatherspark.com has weather data going back to 1980 for most towns & cities in NC.)

What's the ZIP code? The average-year heating & cooling degree-days of the particular location will be a strong factor in determining what and economic or insane level of insulation would be, not the 50-year extreme cold snaps. With a ZIP code annual HDD/CDD numbers relatively easy to estimate even if there isn't 25 years of weather data from a weather station located on the same block.

Localy electricity & heating fuel prices/types and  HVAC system efficiencies also play into the insulation economics too.

Yeah your right, it did get above 0 but not close to above freezing. I believe the year was 1985. Hasn't been close to that for that length of time since. The local am radio station was advising people not to leave home for any reason but an absolute emergency. Most vehicles/tractors would not crank because of the unusual cold. Also had snow drifts 15- 20 feet deep during the blizzard of 93- 94 not sure which.

Obviously the building would not need to be insulated for Antartica. Just saying it can get cold here. Zip 28675.

Mid-winter temperature averages in 29675 are ~40-41, mid-summer averages are ~73F:

  http://weatherspark.com/#!dashboard.../NC/Sparta

The 99% outside design temperature is probably around +15F.  (Sure it get's at lot colder than that, usually several times a year but days when the average is lower than +15F are once in a half-century event.)

Annual heating degree-days are ~3900, cooling degree-days ~1300

This is more comparable to a Long Island NY climate  (and MUCH warmer than Buffalo or Syracuse) but still substantially cooler than lower altitude or coastal NC.  Call it the cool edge of US climate zone 4/warm edge of zone-5.

In that sort of climate  in a small commercial building there's a long-term economic rationale for ~R12-R20 walls (whole-wall average with all thermal bridging factored in, not center-cavity R on a studwall) and ~R50 on the roof.  For residential there's a rationale for even more. (
Code min for new construction under the NC Energy conservation code would be R9.5 if insulated on the exterior, or ~R19 if insulated on the interior (the difference due to the thermal mass of the wall improving average performance)  See table 502.2. p 35 (.pdf pagination) of this document.  You are in zone-4 for the purposes of that table. Use the values for Mass Wall if insulating from the exterior.)

The cheapest way to hit R12-15 on a concrete masonry unit (CMU) building would be to put 3-4" of rigid EPS (or 2-2.5" of rigid polyiso) on the exterior.   EIFS would be both cheaper and thinner than hard stucco, but unless it's installed perfectly and  will maintained it has a higher risk of leakage & moisture issues than any back-vented siding.  (EIFS shouldn't be used over iso, only EPS, and going with iso + hard-stucco is still of comparable overall thickness to EIFS over EPS.) If hard stucco, give it 3/4" of air between the lath & foam, with vents to the outside both top & bottom to promote convective purging of moisture.  (You may have a hard time finding someone experienced with installing hard stucco over foam that thick though.) Alternatively you could use fiber-cement siding with a similar back-venting scheme.

If insulating from the the inside (without eating up too much valuable square footage) use 1x furring screwed to the CMU to establish a  3/4 vent gap between the block wall and the insulation, and use 3" or 3.5" foil-faced rigid polyiso.  To limit thermal bridging of fasteners through the iso,  use 1x furring on the interior to hold it in place, long-screwed with 5" pancake-head timber screws 24" o.c. to the furring between the CMU & foam. The interior finish wall then mounts to the furring.  That eats up about a square foot for every two feet of perimeter though.

You could also split the difference- most stucco guys can handle 1" XPS (R5) on the exterior.  With a back vented siding and semi-permeble XPS on the exterior you could then use 2.5" iso on the interior without a gap between the CMU & iso, eating up only half the square footage of an all-interior approach.  With only 1/5 of the total R exterior to the CMU, the thermal mass has a much lower effect on the building performance, and shooting for R20 total still makes sense.

With a very low angle or flat roof it will be economic to mop on a CRRC rated "cool roof" coating to lower both the average and peak cooling loads, and will lower the overall annual energy use. (For roofs with a pitch greater than 3:12 that would not be the case in your climate- it would lower the peak cooling load, but increase annual energy use slightly.)

Would it be rediculous to consider doing something like this for the covering?

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Fo...fault.aspx

Have aslo considered doing a truss roof over the building so the edges would be taken care of for the sips.

Reasons for or against? Thanks again. Dana1 I appreciate the time and effort you put into a reply, any of you,,, just want to make sure you know that.

Steel SIPs are actually structural, it's not just a skin-job. It would work, but you'd have to put a foundation under the SIP- it's essentially building a building over the existing one, and it might be cheaper/better to just knock the original down and build the SIP building on the same footprint.

Posted By Dana1 on 30 Aug 2012 02:55 PM
Steel SIPs are actually structural, it's not just a skin-job. It would work, but you'd have to put a foundation under the SIP- it's essentially building a building over the existing one, and it might be cheaper/better to just knock the original down and build the SIP building on the same footprint.

Dana1; we are actually going to skin an existing building in 2 weeks in East Hampton, NY. with # 8 mirrored SS, can't wait to start posting pics

I'll be looking for it- thanks for the heads-up!  (Mirrored stainless would probably look like an alien invasion in Sparta though! )

I've been looking for pictures of renovated store fronts and can't seem to find any that will help me decide which way to go. I see so many things around here done in such a sloppy/cheap way . Don't get me wrong I like cheap but not to the point that it costs you more. My goals with this building are ,,, Apartment top floor ,,gut and remodel, new cabinets , bathroom and decide whether to insulated/frame inside or outside with plastered walls inside. There is a chase from basement to top floor so plumbing lines are eqsily ran. Middle floor ceiling has fiber squares not sure what's it called,, celitex? Electrical will be easy to rerun through floor/ceiling joists. Basement,, whew the musty smell smothers me when I go down there. Will rip out all framed walls/drywall and spray down with a clorox mixture o try and kill and fungus. As support post are mirrored on second floor will replace those posts (basement posts) and it should level 2nd and 3rd floors at the same time. Not a huge amount of weight as there are several posts (untreated). Some probably just have rot at the bottom. Basement flooor seems to be ok as many I've seen from this era have floors that are dissolving , probably from wrong mix. I haven't decided to dig exterior basement wall and waterproof or not . I may just pave or concrete after the slope is correct and use a dehumidifier . Lots of decisions to make and unfortunatley not a lot of experience. I don't know if it's this way everywhere but seems none of the contractors in my area will "say I don't know" . They just make a damn mess and you pay for it. Where is Mike Holmes when you need him?