Structural Concrete Insulated Panel SCIP
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LbearUser is Offline
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10 Jan 2012 03:46 PM
Posted By SCIP Panel on 10 Jan 2012 03:01 AM

As far as the finish and mix
Getting the mix wrong could be a death blow.


I liken it to painting an entire car. It takes a lot of experience and even artistic skill to lay the paint on right, make sure the mixture is good, and the right talent and skill to make it look good, all while making sure the prep was right so that the paint doesn't peel off or get fish eyes. Getting a Maaco paint job vs. a professional paint job is the end result and you will pay $$$ for the later.

How do banks even approach a loan with this type of building method? Most banks I know would NOT be willing to do a construction loan on such a build. Too risky for them.

How does one paint the interior walls? Can you use normal latex wall paint? How do you hang up kitchen cabinets? How do you run smoke detector lines in the ceiling?

While I agree this looks like a great building method as far as energy conservation and strength go. It is not for the faint of heart or those with limited resources $$$. I don't believe I would be out of line to say that those who utilize this method are wealthy individuals who don't mind the risk involved if things go bad. There is little to no support out there for this building methodology.

I wish it was more readily used and available in this country but it is brutal just finding a good ICF builder in some states, let alone SCIP, which is ever harder and more rare.




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10 Jan 2012 09:28 PM

As far as the finish and mix
Getting the mix wrong could be a death blow.

So may be an over statement unless you really screw up!

 

Banks are jumping on green I have never heard of one SCIP home not being finished or having to be torn down.

First ICF home I saw ended up getting torn down.

I have taken over wood framed homes that were close to falling down ( the roof was swaying back and forth  11/2” and the roofing was on), another  had to be taken down to the foundation and rebuilt .

 

Building is not for the faint of heart.

I remember stacking the structural pages of plans to a three story dentist complex. Sticking a thumb tack in the bearing points then checking if the holes ling up. Nope some interior piers missed by two feet. The building department missed it the architect missed it and be sure there would have been hell to deal with if I had missed it.

 

(There is little to no support out there for this building methodology )
Too true but it is changing with more SCIP builders who are willing to share and compare.

 

Any finish, including paints that will work with cement work.

The wiring for the smoke detectors is the same as for ceiling lights.

Actually if you use conduit instead of burying the wire in cement you have options.  

 

Standing wall panels is really easy and plumb and line is no harder than plumbing a foundation forms.

 Stacking levels and floors is where it gets complicated.

If you use wood trusses it simplifies the system.



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10 Jan 2012 09:43 PM
Lbear,

Since I have designed and built one-storey homes with SCIP and other systems, I guess I am more optimistic than you are about new technology.

SCIP Panel,

I basically understand how a SCIP second floor is attached to only the inner wythe of shotcrete because it is attached before shotcreting the walls.  Tell me how a wood truss floor would be attached only to the inner wythe.  Would you just bolt an angle or ledger to the inner wythe?  Would the bolts have to go all the way through the wall to engage the outer wythe?  I have not yet seen a detail on how this is done although I am sure it has been done many times.


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10 Jan 2012 11:55 PM
 
My second, third and fourth floors are stacked on top of the walls below.
 The house in Boulder, CO. being built right now has wood floors.
The ledger is spaced off the wall to allow shot crete to get behind it.
The ledger is also thru bolted to rebar on the outside of the wall.
I will post pictures if I can find them.
I think truss roofs are quicker on SCIP walls not better.
Top picture is Boulder SCIP home the was one of the many houses that burned down. Shocking how many are rebuilding with wood again.


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11 Jan 2012 01:31 AM
Posted By SCIP Panel on 10 Jan 2012 09:28 PM


First ICF home I saw ended up getting torn down.



Why did the ICF home have to be torn down?




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11 Jan 2012 01:50 AM
Posted By Alton on 10 Jan 2012 09:43 PM
Lbear,

Since I have designed and built one-storey homes with SCIP and other systems, I guess I am more optimistic than you are about new technology.

Here are my apprehensions about new technologies:

- new technology = $$$$ Big Bucks  - the minute you say new technology, your GC says get the checkbook out - sometimes the cost of building green or new is not worth it in the end, it can take 30+ years to even break even sometimes

- Is there support when things go bad, will these companies be around in 5-10 years, will they warranty?

- there is something to be said for "time tested" technologies. With new tech and 10+ years down the road will problems arise with the structure that nobody seen coming? Aluminum household wiring comes to mind, it was the best new thing on the block, unfortunately it is now a deadly and costly disaster. There are many other new home building technologies that turned into nightmares and costly disasters years later.

 In the end the homeowner is the one stuck with the headaches and financial costs, the companies move on, the GC moves on, the subs move one, it is the homeowner who is left holding the ball & the high mortgage payment.

If I were very wealthy, I would eagerly accept and utilize these new technologies, but for the average person, many of these technologies are too costly and pose too high of a financial risk.

I hope to use ICF in my future home but as I mentioned, there are only TWO people who know how to use ICF properly in my state. It will come down to PRICE, it ALWAYS comes down to price. If ICF is $40k more over wood frame, then I am stuck with wood frame.


As far as SCIPs go. I contacted both U.S companies and I got NO response.



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11 Jan 2012 09:24 AM
but for the average person, many of these technologies are too costly
I think it is more a matter of priorities. My folks' dream home was 2300 sf on lakefront property. That was twice the size of the homes they grew up in and the trend continues today with many of the homes you see here up at 3000 sf and more. Home features that I remember as being seen only in the "luxury homes" are now increasingly demanded everywhere. Granite countertops, large extra rooms, appliances and other amenities increase costs that might better be spent on energy-efficiency or other forms of quality. In my area, I can't count the number of people trying to make a living selling expensive countertops, but just try to find someone with any experience in Green Building.


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11 Jan 2012 09:44 AM
SCIPs look interesting, I would like to be involved in a build. However when compared to ICF construction, ICF is better overall, due to strength, design flexibility and cladding options. How about price per sf?


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11 Jan 2012 10:42 AM
It is not for the faint of heart or those with limited resources $$$.


While I understand your points about new technologies, I've watched workers in central america with no SCIP experience and few tools turn out good SCIP homes for less $ than conventional construction. Of course down there, all of the workers have concrete and stucco experience (although they love to use a watery mix and aren't very careful about wet curing).


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11 Jan 2012 12:46 PM
Although I think that SIPs, ICF and SCIPs have a good track record, I agree with Lbear in that the installer can make the difference in quality.  A bad framer can mess up a stick-built home.  I have seen it and participated in correcting the many errors.  I have actually seen stick-built homes in the framing stage be condemed by the local code official.  All construction was stopped on site until weeks of corrections were made.  That usually upsets the client and costs dearly.


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11 Jan 2012 02:18 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:44 AM
SCIPs look interesting, I would like to be involved in a build. However when compared to ICF construction, ICF is better overall, due to strength, design flexibility and cladding options. How about price per sf?

I agree that about ICF but SCIP would probably tie or beat out ICF in regards to earthquake "strength". SCIP's has the strength of an ICF wall WITHOUT the mass weight. SCIPs can take a 7.0+ quake and come out unscathed. Seismic is a different animal when compared to high winds/tornado's. From what I have read, SCIP has the advantage over ICF in seismic.

I don't know how much I would like concrete on every interior wall or a concrete ceiling. It would feel like living in a bunker. One would have to incorporate some good interior designing to offset the concrete everywhere.  I would most defiantly have to soften the interior with wood and colors.

I wonder if one can put a T&G wood ceiling on a SCIP ceiling?
Can you paint an interior wall with latex paint?
How does one install kitchen cabinets on SCIP walls?


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11 Jan 2012 03:23 PM
Posted By Alton on 11 Jan 2012 12:46 PM
Although I think that SIPs, ICF and SCIPs have a good track record, I agree with Lbear in that the installer can make the difference in quality.  A bad framer can mess up a stick-built home.  I have seen it and participated in correcting the many errors.  I have actually seen stick-built homes in the framing stage be condemed by the local code official.  All construction was stopped on site until weeks of corrections were made.  That usually upsets the client and costs dearly.
 

Alton I agree  

I once went to look at a house that my loan officer was told needed to be torn down.

I told them after doing an inspection the house needs an engineer to look at it.

The last line on the engineer’s correction letter said to expect 100% more in items that needed to be correct but were covered up.

The contractor even put trusses in the wrong place and cut them to fit. It was the cleanest work he did on the job problem is you do not put three point bearing trusses in a two point location.

We had to install new trusses and by the time I came on the job the roofing, rough electrical and plumbing were completed.

Boy what a job that was.

I once bought a house in framing stage in Breckenridge Colorado knowing it was a tear down from the start.



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11 Jan 2012 03:44 PM

Any pictures of ICF home standing up to this ?
Picture taken from http://www.3dsmartstructures.com/ website a Trid SCIP builder who is on his way today to bid putting a SCIP roof on a block house in the Caribbean .

Posted By Lbear on 11 Jan 2012 02:18 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:44 AM
SCIPs look interesting, I would like to be involved in a build. However when compared to ICF construction, ICF is better overall, due to strength, design flexibility and cladding options. How about price per sf?

I agree that about ICF but SCIP would probably tie or beat out ICF in regards to earthquake "strength". SCIP's has the strength of an ICF wall WITHOUT the mass weight. SCIPs can take a 7.0+ quake and come out unscathed. Seismic is a different animal when compared to high winds/tornado's. From what I have read, SCIP has the advantage over ICF in seismic.

I don't know how much I would like concrete on every interior wall or a concrete ceiling. It would feel like living in a bunker. One would have to incorporate some good interior designing to offset the concrete everywhere.  I would most defiantly have to soften the interior with wood and colors.

I wonder if one can put a T&G wood ceiling on a SCIP ceiling?
Can you paint an interior wall with latex paint?
How does one install kitchen cabinets on SCIP walls?

Hands down SCIP beats ICF in strength , earthquake 8.3 on the design I use,
 Bond beams and floors spanning 30' roofs 30' flat and 70' gable minumn 5/12   

Reguarding thermal mass it beats ICF by 50% and SIP by 100% as it has little on none
Check outhttp://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html .

Firehttp check out://www.3dsmartstructures.com/aFirefightersSolution_AlpineGreenLiving.pdf


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11 Jan 2012 03:46 PM

(I wonder if one can put a T&G wood ceiling on a SCIP ceiling?)

I put it on the walls, ceiling would be the same. We also covered one wall with metal and painted the third level with a sanded paint.

Plus I got a deal on the natural stone seen on the first level at $1.00 per sq.ft. it was $16.00 could not pass it up.

By the way today without heat on it was 60 I will see what the temp is tomorrow morning.
The heatpump is set at 55 and I have twice turned it up to 64 for  heating inspections in the past three weeks as of tomorrow.


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11 Jan 2012 08:22 PM
I do not believe two 1" thick shotcrete walls is stronger than 6" concrete. I have my doubts seismic wise too.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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11 Jan 2012 08:49 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 08:22 PM
I do not believe two 1" thick shotcrete walls is stronger than 6" concrete. I have my doubts seismic wise too.
 
Here is one study
PDF]
  Behavior of the MR Sandwich Panel in Flexure - Blastcrete ...[script removed]http://www.google.com/search?q=blas...linkdoctor

 

 

I use monolithic 1 ½” on each side equaling 3” minimum.

I also use one of the engineers who was involved in the study. Who tells me the current design meet standards equaling 8.3 earthquake and 250 mile winds.

.

The blast crete / shot crete design is not a standard pour design.

 I have a friend with hundreds of ICF pours who also uses additives the increase strength and how high you can pour without a blowout so high tech mixes are not solely SCIPs.

 



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11 Jan 2012 08:57 PM

Thermal mass
Today was a no solar gain day with clouds and snow all day.

So today the inside temperature was 60 with outside temps in the mid teens.

Inside temperatures were in the mid 60s tomorrow make three weeks with the heat turned off.

I did turn the heat up twice last week for heating inspections and to check out the desuperheater then turned it off. The free hot water flowed just fine.

The real heat gains daily have been from the sun. Today the walls gave reading from 64 to 68, with doors and door glass 51 to 56 and windows 58. The outside temperature at the same time was 24.



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11 Jan 2012 09:35 PM
I read the report, it read like an advertisement for that brand. I did not see where it said it was stronger than 6" of reinforced concrete. I have done ICF floors that free span 30' and support the live load of vehicles.


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11 Jan 2012 09:41 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:35 PM
I read the report, it read like an advertisement for that brand. I did not see where it said it was stronger than 6" of reinforced concrete. I have done ICF floors that free span 30' and support the live load of vehicles.

I pulled it off the internet, so I guess it is an advertisement but not for me.

Are we talking 30 feet clear span? Or supported mid span?

 

I would rather see all higher efficiency building systems become the norm.

When I put it up I did not say it said anything about ICFs.

If you have data on ICFs wind loads and earthquake strengths I would be glad to see it.

I know fire ratings depend on what you cover the ICFs with.

The reason I found SCIP was when I was designing a home in the mountains and found out Hardi Board transfers heat and needs a thermal break.

I was not worried about earthquakes or hurricanes in CO.  We lost almost two hundred home with the last two big fires.



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11 Jan 2012 10:09 PM
 


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