As far as I know, Logix is the only ICF system for which the manufacturer recommends the use of a welded wire reinforcement product ("Formloc" looks a whole lot like the Dur-O-Wall used in CMU block walls.

They call for a run of it in the second course, and subsequent runs every 4 or 5 courses thereafter.

Is this necessary?  Is something like this used in other systems?

What does it do for us?

Yes we also use form loc but we call it Block loc, the purpose is to take out any small bows in the walls between ties or at seams another name that is used in this regards is wall straightener. I have seen many ICF walls where this was not used even the ones that claim they do not have this issue, and they can get away with the little bows if siding is installed it kind of hides the bows. But when stucco is used the bows become very apparent, also on the interior the bows will show after sheet rock is installed, not that it is that noticable but for the price of the product (generally under $0.50 per foot it is money well spent).

When we were out at the "World of Concrete", the Owens corning fold form guys had a demo wall with the material. Catail is on the money about stucco surfaces showing non-flat walls. I have  stuccoed walls on our current home. With side lighting, I can see every stud that was either bowed badly or set the wrong way.

Instead of installing the formLoc every 4-5 course we've found it sufficient to install the formLoc in our stemwall on the second course and then on our top course. We have found no need to install a 3rd row of formLoc with the Logix forms as the block is strong and the amount of flex side to side is minimal compared to other wall systems. -Pete

Several of the block companies recommend the same.  Nudura and ARX for sure.

Its only good for stem & or crawl (2.5 to 3 block walls with no bracing)walls. Any system that sells this product other than a folding form must be inferior if they recommend it. Any good ICF out there can be poured and straightened perfectly without it! The product causes bridging in ICF's, especially in the summer months and is only recommended by a select few companies? Think about the reason why!

Dave

Ok all plastic materials have elastic properties, based on the density of the material those properties become more or less. The foam block marketing people make all sorts of claims in regards to this and any of them that tell you that their product does not stretch is not being truthful. Some stretch less than others but they do stretch.

The plastic ties in this industry are made up of many different types and designs of plastic, some use polypropolene some use High density polyethylene, and some may even use high density poly carbonate although I do not know if that is true as I have not seen one that does yet.

The plastic that is used in ties regardless of type has a higher molecular density than any foam that is attached, so the ties will stretch less than the foam, even though the density of the foam may be higher the foam will still stretch more when concrete is placed than the tie giving you some deviation in the flatness of the wall surface, and this is usually more apparent at the seams. This does not let the steel tie guys off the hook as steel will not stretch but the foam still will.

The wall straightner when properly applied and the concrete is properly consolidated will help reduce some of the bows between ties and more importantly at the seams.

Now you can choose to believe what I am saying or not, but if it matters to you call a foam molder and ask them about the properties of the foam, they can be found on the internet under foam shape molders. Once you have done this tell your sales person that they should start telling the truth or at the very least stop saying their product does not settle or stretch.

I will give you a little backround on me, I am not an expert and would not want to be placed in that catagory. My brother and I own the company that developed our tie and have it produced by a local injection mold company, My wife and I own the company that holds the patent, ICC, and the molds that produce our form, and we have that produced by a local shape molders in various parts of the country. My brother owns the company that manufactures the bracing system that he and I developed for the ICF walls on the market, my son and I own the company that does the stucco , and waterproofing on the builds in our area, my son in law owns the company that builds with our product, My wife and I own the company that markets the ancillary products used in the ICF industry, two partners and I own the marketing company that markets our product nation wide.

I have made every effort possible to know as much about the items that are used in our buisness as I can, mainly because the sales people where saying things like our wall does not stretch or settle and it just did not make sense to me when common sense dictates that a product with elastic qualities will stretch when pressure is applied to it.

Our products like some of the others out there have been Third party tested to meet or exceed the ICC requierments. This is not an advertisment for our product and I will not even tell you the brand of our product and please do not private message me to find out because I will not reply in this regard. The reason for this post is to make everyone awair of the truth and not the hype that some use to market their products, its time for the industry to come clean before the industry gets a bad name. If we where all as smart as we think we are we would stick to selling the ICF for its over all benefits in comparison to alternative or traditional methods and stop beating each other up in the market

Yes you can 'straighten' a wall without it, is it going to to be as easy to adjust without it? NO.

Cattail Bill wrote: "The wall straightner when properly applied and the concrete is properly consolidated will help reduce some of the bows between ties and more importantly at the seams."

I cannot understand how the formlock, or whatever anyone calls it, can help in regards to reducing the bows between ties. I do understand what you are saying about the pressure of the fluid concrete causing the foam to bow out more where it is not being restrained by the web. But the formlock is placed inside the form and offers no resistance whatsoever to the pressure exerted in an outward direction by the fluid concrete on the foam.

Think of it this way, say a pencil represents the formlock and a balloon represents the form, if you put the pencil inside the balloon and then inflate the balloon does the pencil keep the balloon from expanding? Of course not, the pencil is not physically attached to the inside of the balloon so the balloon just expands around it.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding what you were trying to say in your post.

Sorry I read my post some times I get going so fast I do not clarify what I am saying, the form loc works on the seams where it says between the ties, should say (it also helps the whole wall stay straight just like a truss helps the floor stay level).

Again my apologize for stating that incorrectly.

I am now curious about this product.  Unfortunately I cannot find it referenced on the Logix website under reinforcement or alignment nor can I find it by googling formloc or any variation I can think of.  Could someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,  John

Try Googling for "dur o wall" or "dur a wall" or variations on that.

Know what a bar joist looks like?  Sure you do.  Top flange, bottom flange, and a zig zag bent rod web.  Now do this in something like 10 gage wire.

Dur-a-wall is a welded wire product laid into the between-course mortar when building CBU (concrete block unit) walls, and is meant to strengthen them laterally.

FormLoc is the same thing, and you will see references to it if you drill into Logix's installation instructions.

pcoughlin, I've been around the industry long enough to ask the important question, do you tie the form-loc?

Dave

Nope, Ive never had a need to. The only instance that I could see a benefit of tying the form-loc would be for latteral support on the top row of stem walls (to prevent the horz corner joints from spreading), but of course there are a handful of other ways of preventing that :)

Well at least it's good to know that your not using it for spreading purposes. As far as it making the wall easier to straighten that would all come down to your alignment spacing. At the spacing we prefer (51/2 ft) the formloc doesn't make it any easier.
I personally don't like walking on planks with spacing further than 51/2 ft and the cost of rental for 6-10 units is much less expensive than 2 courses of formloc and is a much safer working environment. I see formloc as a necessary evil with folding forms but also not necessary with blocks.

Dave

in regards to the wall straightner ,we use the amvic block and if there is any stretching I haven't noticed I have even taken

a 10' wall brace and held it horazontal next to the wall without seeing any bulging between the tie's Friday, March 30, 2007

There won't be any streching or bulging unless the concrete slump is too high and/or you over vibrate. Another place might be where you've cut a block and have more than 3-4 inches of foam past the web and didn't reinforce the vertical joint properly.

Glenn, that's because your using a good form! i.e. 6" o.c. tie spacing .For those above that believe in this product and sell or use a non folding product, I would suggest you start looking for a good block.

Dave

I have followed this thread with a little intrest and low and behold I have a few comments. Gene for your first question is it necessary? The answer is it depends. If this is your first and only home you have built then I would install it to the factory's specifications because as any experienced installer knows there are areas where you can fudge or cut corners a bit and places you can't but this comes with experience. If an installer doesn't do something to factory specs then he is taking on the liability for a good or poor result. The factory gives you a way to complete your structure with a good result. They usually give you a prepour check list, that if you have done everything on their list to the tee you will have a good result with your pour. Makes it almost fool proof...almost. The problem I have seen is when new installers or homeowners who think something is not important cuts a critical corner gets a bad result. Then the person hardly never blames themseves but blames the product or the distributor or their concrete company and the list goes on. My opinion is the formloc is a cheap insurance policy to ensure a good result. Use it and smile when you see your straight walls.

Many of the jobs I do are done with a folding form.  I occasionally use "block lock" to make sure all the last run block ends match up.  The block is long and sometimes the ends try to miss align, not much, but just enough to be seen.  That's where I use it. 
There are two kinds available, one is a zig zag pattern and the other is a ladder style.  I like the ladder because it gives me unfettered access to INTERNALLY vibrate.  Many times we use a 2" to 2-1/2" internal vibrator on 6" forms especially the last 2 to 3' of the pour.