I am building with ICF in the basement and SIP on the main floor, and I'd like to eliminate the rim joist if I could. An option would be to put both the SIP and the joists on top of the sill plate, but I was wondering if it is possible to hang the I-joists from the ICF wall with a ledger board? If it is possible, would the joists be flush with the ICF so that the subfloor would butt against the SIP? Thanks,

Boontucky

Boontucky,

I believe that you are simply looking for the simpson strong tie ICFVL Ledger Connector System. I works very well though I am sure that there may also be other options out there. Hope this help...renangle

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/icfvl.asp

Boontucky,
Do one better than eliminating the rim-joist, eliminate the SIPs. Build an all ICF house.

Renangle,

Thank you. I think that will work perfect. One question, that tie is ok to use at the top of the basement? I thought it was to be used when you're going all of the way ICF to the roof. Do I need any special or extra reinforcement at the top of the basement wall, or will the minimum of #4 12" from the top be enough?

ICFConstruction,

LOL. I started with whole house ICF until the quotes came in. I just can't afford to do the whole house ICF right now and still have money for other things that I want. So SIP was a reasonable compromise. But I'm with you, next house will be ICF.

Does anyone have experience with ICF Connect?

Yes, ICF connect is actually what you are looking for based on your original question. They take some time to use and layout, but all-in-all they are a viable product.

I have also used the ICFVL setup and find using a typical ledger system is probably best for those who will be doing a lot of the work themselves, and do not have an extensive trades background.

Both systems are great, it just depends on labor available and proper planning.

ICFVL and ICF connect are both good and I agree completely with Jim. I think (key word is think) some building code officials may have a question regarding the ICF Connect, so you may want to ask them. ICF Connect is usually less expensive than the ICFVL. As for additional reinforcement, no you should be fine at the top of the basement. If rebar is 12" on center is seem like there is considerable backfill. That much rebar would be fine for whatever ledger system you choose to use.

Thank you. I won't have any problem with code, there isn't one to follow. The only permit I need to follow is the setbacks and septic. Other than that, I'm on my own, so I'm going to follow the IRC at least. No one around here has used that, so we're on our own there too.
Which is stronger? To use hanger or to go with the traditional sill plate bearing for the joists? Someone commented to me that sill plate is a much better choice than hangers.

The question shouldn't be "which is stroner?", but rather does any system I decide to use provide me with the 40 PSF typical floor loading I need for a residence?

The answer is each of then do it. The comment that the sill plate method is stronger is made by someone who doesn't want to use one of the other 3 types available for ICFs.

Excluding any seismic concerns, I never understood why someone would use 8" tansitioning to 6" for a floor sill plate, and perhaps then a 6" transitioning to a 4" if there is a second floor. The first 8" wall uses about 30% more concrete, and the 6 to 4 system is simply to provide a sill.

The labor involved to set a sill on a poured ledge, which has to be leveled, shimmed, bolted, etc on top of the extra concrete cost never made sense to me! But thats just my opinion!

Jim,

We are going with 8" basement wall because that is the norm here. I can do a 6" basement but with the soil characteristics and the fill height what I save on concrete I use up in rebar requirements. With the ICF I have 12" of bearing surface, and the SIPs will take 7, leaving me with 5 for the I-joist, but that is counting the foam, and it is probably perfectly fine, but I'd like the joists to bear on more concrete, which is why i thought that joist hangers would be it, since the ties are embedded in the concrete.

We are doing a lot of the work ourselves, and one concern I have is that if we make a mistake and locate a joist hanger in the wrong spot, how do you fix that?

I was looking for information on making a brick ledge at the top of the basement wall, facing it towards the inside so that the joists would bear on that and the reinforcing steel would help distribute that load better, instead of the foam bearing part of that weight. But I haven't been able to come up with something. The company we're going with has a brick ledge form, but only for their 10" wall going to a 6" wall, and we don't need a 10" basement.

Thanks for all the input!

simply use a sawzall and cut the foam on the inside at the top block at a 45 or 60 degree angle, I prefer the steeper 60, however, it doesn't have to be a work of art, just remove the foam on the walls where you need bearing.

Using a 13" form, 8" core and taking 7 for the sip leaves you with 3 1/2 of concrete bearing without any cutting. But you say 7 for the sip, does the mfg like only 4 1/2" bearing? check that out.

OK, I use 6" multi-floor a lot, but there are times when someone needs 8" for site reasons!!

Sounds like you're checking things before it causes a problem!

A taper top form will get you the bearing surface your looking for with no extra work and not much more money. We use taper tops on the walls that your joists will set on. Ask your distrubutor for a price. It should be less than a doller more.

Virgil Schmidt

If the blade is large enough for the cut, use a table saw to cut the blocks you need a taper in. I found that a table saw worked great for doing a lot of the cutting of ICF forms when I was stacking my walls. Straighter and smoother cuts than by hand!

nice approach if a saw is available! It should work great! I suppose a circ saw with a guide could work, the intent being fast cuts ready for concrete!

Would I need to reinforce that concrete somehow? Like a horizontal bar with some stirrups? I found this picture on the internet that I thought might work. But I'm looking for stirrup requirements if I went this route.

The wall is 12.25" thick, and the foam is 2.25", so the SIP would be bearing on 2.25 of foam and 4.75" of concrete, and 3" of concrete for the joists, plus 2.25" of interior foam. If I did like like on the picture, I would get an extra 2.25 of bearing surface, and I could slide the SIP wall in, so it would bear on concrete directly, and just use flashing on the foam that would protrude outside. My Joist supplier checked with the company and they said I only need 1.5" of bearing for the joists, which to me seems like not enough!

Yes, I want to triple check everything before we plunge in!

Miformguy: The company that we're going with doesn't have taper top. They have a brick ledge form but only for their 10" wall transitioning to a 6" wall, so can't go that route.

Dmaceld: The block is 12" tall and 2.25" thick. At a 60º angle, the cut would be 4.5" long. I think a table saw would do that. I'm assuming a regular blade will do it? I don't have a table saw but I've been wanting one for a while, this might be my great excuse. I could encourage my father in law to upgrade his and I can buy his old one :P

So if I go this route I don't need extra reinforcement? That would be my concern.

Thanks!

Here's a detail I did in paint of what I had in mind before I thought about the taper top/brick ledge option.

I'm not sure why you'd need a 'Rim' joist in that situation. Here is a similar connection:

Good point! I think I already knew that but wasn't thinking straight. Would I need some sort of blocking in between the joists?

You could if you wanted, but it's probably not required. The TJI's are anchored to the sill on the bottom, and the SIP & subfloor on the top.