What methods and materials do you guys use when wrapping window bucks? I used 2x12's for my window bucks and will be installing screw-through-frame windows (aka no nail flange) and need to do this soon before the windows arrive. My window manufacturer said Tyvek but that doesn't sound right at all. Would the peel and stick that is used below grade be the best?

Thanks
Kyle

when you say 'wrapping window bucks' do you mean to protect against the concrete before the pour or are you talking about after??? If you mean after and when you are installing the windows I would install window then use spray foam to insulate and seal then go outside and either use Tuck Tape or strips of the peel and stick to overlap the 2x12 to the ICF to stop any potential air infiltration. Also try to attach to the side of the window as well to make a tight seal.
Hope that helps!
Paul Stevens

If this is before the pour, you could use tyvek, or a product like it, if you wanted to. I have used it lots of times, and it isn't too expensive. Now I use protecto wrap. It is a 12" peel n stick that comes in 75' rolls. The last time I checked it was $36.00 per roll (in California). It is supposed to stick, but tack a few staples on it just in case, you don't want it to peel off when sliding it into your opening.
If after the pour, I would also use the protecto wrap- start with your bottom strip, then your two jambs going over that piece 8" past the bottom of the window, then your header strip- covering your two jambs.

If you are setting your windows into the middle of the ICF buck frame somewhere and not surface mounting them make sure you have a tin banger make up metal sills at least for the bottom.

Now wrap the sides and top with a peel and stick such as Protecto

Window Wrap or Peel and Stick products work well if sticking to wood, but it did not adhere well to the EPS of the ICF block. Now I have some water coming in the ICF house. I can't be sure if it is the window leaking or maybe the cold joint where the slab meets the wall which could possibly allow seepage if the joint wasn't washed out good before pouring. Staples?? I even put a 6 inch layer of durock around each window frame which should have pressed the window wrap against the ICF/wood junction sealing it even better. I am researching if there is a suitable primer like Perma A Barrier from Grace or maybe Grailcoat or Hydro Stop or some other waterproofing system that is better to seal windows and compatible with an EIFS type of stucco like Master Wall. PLEASE any suggestions. Is Vycor a good waterproofing for windows to ICF? Primer needed on EPS? I also have a parapet wall which needs something dependable to make a waterproof junction at the ICF wall. I can't get any answers from Grace, but it is a holiday week. All the local ICF guys use Red Gard but they don't guarantee it for windows or vertical exterior applications? Also, should the junction from slab to ICF wall be waterproofed just in case. Stucco is not waterproof, obviously. HELP??

In our ICF design we will cover the foam with cedar shingles trimmed with 1X4's on the corners and around the windows.

We can nail the window surrounds to the bucks, on the inside edge, and hopefully to the built in furring stripps (in the blocks) - but typically I would also add polyurethane caulking to the underside edge to insure a watertight window trim. You don't see the caulk, but it keeps all water and insects out.

With ICF, how do you do this? Is it ok to use a polyurethane caulk or even a silicone caulk under the wood?

Posted By Roger R on 07 Jul 2013 04:40 PM

With ICF, how do you do this? Is it ok to use a polyurethane caulk or even a silicone caulk under the wood?

I would NOT use silicone caulk, stick with polyurethane.

Posted By john636 on 07 Jul 2013 10:08 AM
 
PLEASE any suggestions. Is Vycor a good waterproofing for windows to ICF? Primer needed on EPS? I also have a parapet wall which needs something dependable to make a waterproof junction at the ICF wall. I can't get any answers from Grace, but it is a holiday week. All the local ICF guys use Red Gard but they don't guarantee it for windows or vertical exterior applications? Also, should the junction from slab to ICF wall be waterproofed just in case. Stucco is not waterproof, obviously. HELP??

The problem with ICF is that once the ICF contractor leaves the subs come in to do the rest of the work and most of them never worked with ICF and so they apply incorrect techniques & practices in their installs. All they know is wood frame and they just use their wood frame install details but as you are experiencing, it doesn't always work with EPS/ICF, hence your window leaks. It's not that ICF is complicated to detail, it's the lack of knowledge by the subs.

I would contact the window company and/or the ICF block company to see what they recommend. Are you windows mounted flush on the outside or recessed?

Posted By Lbear on 07 Jul 2013 05:22 PM

I would NOT use silicone caulk, stick with polyurethane.



Polyurethane is ok? Not too hot? What happens with silicone?

Posted By Roger R on 07 Jul 2013 08:51 PM


Polyurethane is ok? Not too hot? What happens with silicone?

Silicone in window applications fails after 3-5 years. The constant expansion of dissimilar materials in heating and cooling cycles breaks the bond and it becomes worthless, in addition to the VOC's that silicone has. Unless you plan on ripping your wall assembly apart and caulking it every 5 years, I would avoid silicone.

See this video from Hammer and Hand about window sealing and urethane caulks:

Hammer and Hand

PROSOCO makes excellent products for window sealing:

PROSOCO

Posted By john636 on 07 Jul 2013 10:08 AM
Now I have some water coming in the ICF house. I can't be sure if it is the window leaking or maybe the cold joint where the slab meets the wall which could possibly allow seepage if the joint wasn't washed out good before pouring. Staples?? I even put a 6 inch layer of durock around each window frame which should have pressed the window wrap against the ICF/wood junction sealing it even better...........................All the local ICF guys use Red Gard but they don't guarantee it for windows or vertical exterior applications? Also, should the junction from slab to ICF wall be waterproofed just in case. Stucco is not waterproof, obviously. HELP??

Two things. Can you provide a sketch showing how your windows were installed, including how the peel & stick, etc., is fitted into the configuration?

Second, you cannot, nor do you want to, waterproof the window installation. It can't be done. What you want to do is make it water resistant, and then design the configuration so that any water that does get inside, or condensation that forms inside the assembly, has a path to drain down and out. Keeping 100% of the water out is nigh impossible, so you make the system shed the water so that all paths it has available lead to it draining to the outside. You also want to have some way for the interior areas that are subject to water intrusion have a way to "breathe" so the water can dry out.

For that reason you should not caulk the bottom edge of the windows, neither the flange nor the trim.

Posted By dmaceld on 08 Jul 2013 12:48 AM

Second, you cannot, nor do you want to, waterproof the window installation. It can't be done. What you want to do is make it water resistant, and then design the configuration so that any water that does get inside, or condensation that forms inside the assembly, has a path to drain down and out. Keeping 100% of the water out is nigh impossible, so you make the system shed the water so that all paths it has available lead to it draining to the outside. You also want to have some way for the interior areas that are subject to water intrusion have a way to "breathe" so the water can dry out.

For that reason you should not caulk the bottom edge of the windows, neither the flange nor the trim.

I kindly disagree with the above. A window detail should be designed as waterproof as possible and in the remote event some water does make its way in, it should be allowed to dry out to the exterior. There is absolutely NO reason why the interior wall area should be getting water intrusion. If it is, something was incorrectly done.

That's like saying all houses have to leak air because there is no way to make them air tight. So you are better off just letting them leak air and not detail the homes walls and roof, just let it leak.

If a window detail is designed to constantly get water intrusion, it will not be able to dry out fast enough to prevent mold and rot. Especially in a humid or rainy climate.

Here are some details from GBA that assure a tight-fitting and leak free window detail:

GBA WINDOW DETAILS

Posted By Lbear on 08 Jul 2013 02:39 AM

I kindly disagree with the above. A window detail should be designed as waterproof as possible and in the remote event some water does make its way in, it should be allowed to dry out to the exterior. There is absolutely NO reason why the interior wall area should be getting water intrusion. If it is, something was incorrectly done.

I'm not saying let water get in, especially all the way to the interior wall. Of course that's a no-no. What I'm saying is make the path for water as resistant to water movement as practical, but you accomplish that more by making the system shed the water, not by making it impenetrable to water. Take your car windows for instance. Under all but the most severe situations water does not enter the car, but the window/door assembly is not absolutely waterproof.

In designing the window details gravity is your friend. Use it as much as possible, especially to defeat the real bane of window systems, molecular attraction, i.e., the desire for water to stick to and follow a surface, even on the underneath side.

Unfortunately, my ICF contractor intends to make it very watertight, but he says he has been doing it that way for years and never a problem. It seems others around here on the Gulf Coast are doing it that way too. i tried to follow a different path and use the Window Wrap, and I seem to be the only one with a leak.

This is what the contractor does as standard practice. They use Permaseal or Red Gard which is a paint on red membrane used to waterproof shower stalls under tile. They roll the material over some fabric to cover from about 6 inches from the edge of the treated wood window or door buck out of over the EPS face of the ICF form and to the inside about the same distance. This covers the joint between the wood buck and the ICF and overlaps a few inches. Then he mounts the window in the buck and seals with the same material using two coats to cover the window flange and the interface with the buck which is usually recessed. I don't know what is wrong with having it completely sealed especially in hurricane country where you get some very high winds pushing water at the windows sometimes, but I wouldn't allow this method on my last house because there is NO warranty for this use of that sealing product. I think Hydro Stop is used the same way and maybe Grailcoat. I am caught between the various approaches and wish there was a universal method and that somebody could recommend a product that has stood the test of time that is designed to seal around the window buck and the window. Thanks for your input. I understand exactly what you are saying and it makes sense. I tried to do just what you are saying. Can you tell me again what product you suggest to seal the junction of the treated wood buck and the ICF wall? Thanks.

john636 - dmaceld is on the right track as is your contractor. There is a slight difference of interpretation. Also look at Chris's comments about a tin sill. Its okay to have a tight weather face but I don't think you should wrap the wood buck inside with anything. It just prevents the buck from drying to the inside. Personally, I don't think wood bucks have a place in ICF construction. Use foam buck with webs.

When you use wood bucks and don't have a one hundred percent seal in the window jamb to drywall joint, air can move in. The wood buck, against the concrete will be your coldest surface next to the glass it self, so you can get condensation at that point under certain climatic conditions. If it is all tape or covered with mastic, the chances are the air can still get in but the water can't get out or diffuse. This is even more important when you go with "innie" as the is more surface exposed. In that case you are better with a pan that the window sits on and extends all the way out to allows the siding or stucco to tuck under it. Fold the ends up the opening and then apply a peel and stick or paint on product where the nail fin is going to sit.

Posted By john636 on 07 Jul 2013 10:08 AM
Window Wrap or Peel and Stick products work well if sticking to wood, but it did not adhere well to the EPS of the ICF block...

I found that peel-and-stick waterproofing products stick really well to EPS if you prime it first.  I used Black Jack white silconized elastomeric roof coating (10 year warranty stuff available from Lowes and other places) to paint on my EPS after it was thoroughly cleaned.  I applied two coats to the EPS and allowed to dry.  It is thick and will fill small voids.  Larger gaps I would fill with a high quality caulk first.  The peel-and-stick products really stick to this stuff.  You can also use it to paint over the outside exposed part of your wood buck and window flange prior to applying the peel-and-stick.

Arkie, Thanks for this suggestion and sharing your experience. This product sounds like just the right thing. I found one on the Black Jack web page called Ultra Roof that fits the description and has a 10 year warranty. http://www.gardner-gibson.com/linedetails.aspx?id=224 Is this the one? Also, when you say cleaned EPS do you mean just washed off or is it necessary to run over it with coarse sandpaper and brush it off too? I notice that Black Jack has a similar product called Black Jack® 5227-1-20 1g Roof Patch Elastic Crack Sealer & Repair that suggest using with a mesh. Wouldn't this be a heavy duty approach similar to what you were suggesting? I guess I would then have to cover this sealed area with cement board prior to stucco with an acrylic based product like Master Wall? Thanks a million for the advice. :)

I contacted the Black Jack tech support for their suggestion on a product to use to waterproof around windows on ICF. This is the response:

"Sorry, no I do not have a product that is compatible and or that would fit this application."

Not saying your suggestion doesnt' work. All the ICF guys here say that Red Gard used for shower stall waterproofing works too, but these companies don't stand behind their product for window waterproofing for some reason. I am still looking. Grailcoat was another suggestion, and my call with them a few minutes ago was informative and they definitely are confident and recommend their product for waterproofing on ICF.

See this link re: Dura Flex which actually mentions it is specifically for ICF waterproofing.

http://grailcoat.com/products

Anybody used this product for a while?

Posted By john636 on 11 Jul 2013 01:13 PM
Arkie, Thanks for this suggestion and sharing your experience. This product sounds like just the right thing. I found one on the Black Jack web page called Ultra Roof that fits the description and has a 10 year warranty. http://www.gardner-gibson.com/linedetails.aspx?id=224 Is this the one? Also, when you say cleaned EPS do you mean just washed off or is it necessary to run over it with coarse sandpaper and brush it off too? I notice that Black Jack has a similar product called Black Jack® 5227-1-20 1g Roof Patch Elastic Crack Sealer & Repair that suggest using with a mesh. Wouldn't this be a heavy duty approach similar to what you were suggesting? I guess I would then have to cover this sealed area with cement board prior to stucco with an acrylic based product like Master Wall? Thanks a million for the advice. :)

Yes, the Ultra Roof is what I used.

When I cleaned the EPS for the below grade waterproofing, I used a big nylon brush to go over it to knock any loose particles and oxidation off, then sprayed it off with garden hose and let it dry.  Around my windows and doors I used by shop vac with a brush on the end of the hose to clean off any loose particles after I went over the foam with the nylon brush.

I have not used the Roof Patch / Crack Sealer.  I suspect it is just a thicker version of the Ultra Roof.  The Ultra Roof is plenty thick for this application and I recommend it.  I just used a paint brush to apply two coats around window openings.  I used a paint roller when priming the below grade EPS for the waterproofing.

I did an experiment with this stuff before I put it on my walls.  I took two scrap flat pieces of ICF foam and stuck them together with this elastomeric coating.  I let it dry for a few days and then tried to pull them apart.  I broke the foam into pieces trying to get them apart - the elastomeric bond to the foam was stronger than the foam.

Arkie, The Black Jack Ultra Roof sounds like a great product for a primer. What peel and stick did you use below grade? Vycor? I will use another Grace product, Ice and Water Shield on my roof and think maybe the Ultra Roof would be a good primer to use to run the water shield peel and stick up onto the parapet wall a few inches when drying in the roof. After that I will be putting roof flashing over it anyway and then maybe cover that with cement board and a waterproofing material that is compatible with my stucco over that. I can understand that the manufacturer of the roof seal won't recommend it for windows because that area was subject of so many lawsuits back when EIFS first came into use. Nobody wants to touch it I guess, but your description sounds good as long as it will keep it all stuck together forever! It is acrylic so it should be no problem. I bet if I tore off stucco around my windows now that after 3 years the peel and seal could be pulled right off of the foam!! Unfortunately.