Recommendations for ICF bracing
Last Post 23 Dec 2008 11:38 AM by tdbuilder. 52 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 3123 > >>
Author Messages
lkazanov2User is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:177

--
04 Dec 2008 04:08 PM
Guys,

Need some help on your favorite brands.  I have looked at the Giraffe website.  Seems interesting.  Also anybody with rough plans for homemade ICF brace?  What turnbuckle used?

Thanks,

Leonard




SoCalScottUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:91

--
04 Dec 2008 05:36 PM
Giraffe and Reechcraft are two very good systems. Also, be aware of a "home made" system. While some guys swear that they work just as good, all you do is open up yourself to liability issues if your system fails while an employee is on it. Depending on where you are located you might be able to save on the upfront cost by purchasing used bracing ( be sure it is in good condition and was made by a reputable manufacturer).



renangleUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:304

--
04 Dec 2008 06:28 PM
Our company uses Reechcraft for bracing and it is a very good product. I tell you though, one of my installers uses the Nudura bracing system and I think I like it better than Reechcraft. Nudura says that it works only with Nudura, however that is not the case. I am not a Nudura Distributer. They base for laying walk boards on goes on very quickly and the turnbuckle system is a bit better as well with handle for easier rotation.



bobsimUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
05 Dec 2008 06:41 AM
 Hello Leonard,
 From looking at your other posts I'm assuming you're new to ICF construction. If this is the case I would suggest you find a source to rent proper bracing. Follow the block mfr.'s recommendations for placement and when in doubt, over brace.
 After ten years of installation I am still learning and remember several occasions when the only thing separating learning and fixing was a good set of braces. Also in my experience I have yet to see a set of home made braces I would feel comfortable working with.
 I understand cost cutting and budgeting but as an installer my concern is with the structure and job safety. I hate to sound negative this early in the day but think about what could go wrong, it's the best way way to prevent it.
 


lkazanov2User is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:177

--
05 Dec 2008 10:25 AM
Guys,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I am new to the field. We are GC'ing our new home and I am very hands on. My plan is to erect and brace and have a professional crew for the pour and consultation during the process.

Commercial bracing is anywhere from 150-220 per set. (I like Giraffe). For our home there is about 400 some LF of wall. So about 100 braces. This is quite an investment. I have no rental availability for me. Besides I plan on 3 stories (basement) of ICF all the way to the roof line. Now, I can consider a lease to purchase. So the next question is how strong is the resale market for ICF bracing? If I could recoup 75-80% it may be worth it. I completely understand the danger, safety, and liability aspect from a fall.

Thanks for the feedback.

Leonard



bobsimUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
05 Dec 2008 12:03 PM
  Leonard,
  I'm a little confused why the bracing is unavailable, let me ask a few questions. Where are you building? What type and size block are you using, and what has your distributor told you?
 
 As far as doing all the stacking and bracing yourself and hiring a pro to pump it, I can see some problems.
 A good pump day starts with the first course and is an accumulation of knowledge the pro installs in all the blocks, openings and especially the braces. I can't imagine a pro agreeing to this without the understanding he is not responsible for any sub standard work done before him. Aside from sloppy placement I can't think of any problems on pump day that can't be attributed to poor stacking/bracing. Seems like a no win situation for you.
 Have you contacted your pro yet? Seems he would have a solution to your brace issue. Maybe he can place an experienced man to work with you.
 A multi level with basement is a fairly technical job, a lot for a novice.


lkazanov2User is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:177

--
05 Dec 2008 12:28 PM
We are in Western Maryland. We have decided on either TF system or Quadlock (both panelized systems). Still TBD. We have about 55 corners (many 45's). I agree with your thoughts but I am also confident in what I can or cannot do. I also have "consultants" who agree to come as consultants for questions and for the pumping. They are aware of the install and bracing to be done by me. No close distributors. The ones that I have been in contact with either encourage purchasing commercial bracing or making bracing from wood. I am considering being an ICF spec builder so who knows maybe the bracing investment will be fruitful. But it would also be comforting to know that I can sell the stuff as well.

I appreciate your feedback.

Leonard



bobsimUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:10

--
05 Dec 2008 02:52 PM
 Leonard,
 I was in Richmond, Va. for a few months, '06/'07 and was surprised at the amount of ICF work going on. One large commercial job downtown and a residential, both in my short commute to work. Not exactly close but may be workable.


woulfccUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:147

--
05 Dec 2008 03:22 PM

Their are a lot of guys out here that will travel this year with the work being slow I would look in to that.

 I have done it for years and tf and quad lock have people in house to help on this as well as people the will recommend.  The last thing I would do is show up 2 hours befor a pour and look at the walls and pour! I have been bit by that dog befor.
 Good luck.



Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin
dmaceldUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1465
Avatar

--
05 Dec 2008 10:33 PM
Posted By lkazanov2 on 12/05/2008 12:28 PM
 We have about 55 corners (many 45's).


In 400 lineal feet of wall?????? That's barely an average of 7' per section of straight wall. That doesn't sound realistic.



Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
woulfccUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:147

--
06 Dec 2008 11:56 AM
Posted By lkazanov2 on 12/05/2008 12:28 PM
We are in Western Maryland. We have decided on either TF system or Quadlock (both panelized systems). Still TBD. We have about 55 corners (many 45's). I agree with your thoughts but I am also confident in what I can or cannot do. I also have "consultants" who agree to come as consultants for questions and for the pumping. They are aware of the install and bracing to be done by me. No close distributors. The ones that I have been in contact with either encourage purchasing commercial bracing or making bracing from wood. I am considering being an ICF spec builder so who knows maybe the bracing investment will be fruitful. But it would also be comforting to know that I can sell the stuff as well.

I appreciate your feedback.

Leonard


 All right, STOP!
 Just to let you know .
 At 55 corners you need 2 braces on each corner thats 110 and a brace every 7' so add +20=130.
  I have worked with both of the systems you are looking at and this would be a hard build for any one.
 This is your first build, and it will get away from you with out all of this bracing in place.
 A plan like this is what makes icf cost more than stick frame.
Now the cost of bracing is so irrelevant here, (you need to keep the wall strait)its the plan that was at fault here.
 Any installer can see the what is going on here, you are not alone with your problem.
 When you cut your walls up and turn them in and out every 5'  because an architect thinks this will look good.  The home owner has looked it over and has paid for the drawings and has fall in love with the plan.
 Now you ask how much will it cost to build?
 The price of the roof alone is $15,000.00 more then a 6 corner house.(ask the truss company and the roofer)
  Now the siding has to be all cut up from 12' lengths and more corners on the job (labor is higher and so is the price)So add $10,000
 Are you seeing what I am seeing here or are you just in love with the plan?
I will not try to change you plan if I am bidding on it, Because it's what you say you want and what can I do just tell you this is what it will cost.
 Now the home owner gets all the numbers in and see he has to cut the price down.
 Well I can build the walls! ( The biggest savings on the project) And the just stack and pour sales people will say you can do it, But they will not stand behind the work.
Everything in the build works off the walls and when they are out of place (and this happens a lot on icfs done by new bits) now the price you saved on doing it your self is gone and you will even pay more than you would have to have a pro come in and do it.
 Now its the icf that is to blame its junk and its to hard to work with, the stack and pour guys checks in the bank and he can't fix it, he did not do anything wrong. (BS)
 Its not the exception here, its what I seen way to many times.
 First lets look at the 55 corners, why? Curb appeal, that is an opinion that I can't wrap my head around at that price tag. Their are so many other ways to get the same curb appeal or Even more.
 If we get down to 12 corners now we have the money to do so much more than before.
 This is a easer and less costly build and a new bit will have an easer time and better end product .
Now 30 less braces at $140.00 roof 15,000.00 siding 10,000.00 you do the math.
 Now lets look at having a pro come in and his bracing system is in the bid.
do you see what I am getting at here or is the 55 corner build still in the way?.
 My numbers are high but the point is icf's go up in price with every turn of a corner and so dose you building even with stick build.
  TF will turn easy I have worked with it , its not a bad block for that many corners.
 Just brace it a lot.
 Just the way I see it , I hope it helps you see this in a new light.(May be go back to the drawing board)
 Find a icf contractor and ask him for input on the build and foot print with price in mind.


  


Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin
woulfccUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:147

--
06 Dec 2008 12:16 PM
Posted By woulfcc on 12/06/2008 11:56 AM
Posted By lkazanov2 on 12/05/2008 12:28 PM
We are in Western Maryland. We have decided on either TF system or Quadlock (both panelized systems). Still TBD. We have about 55 corners (many 45's). I agree with your thoughts but I am also confident in what I can or cannot do. I also have "consultants" who agree to come as consultants for questions and for the pumping. They are aware of the install and bracing to be done by me. No close distributors. The ones that I have been in contact with either encourage purchasing commercial bracing or making bracing from wood. I am considering being an ICF spec builder so who knows maybe the bracing investment will be fruitful. But it would also be comforting to know that I can sell the stuff as well.

I appreciate your feedback.

Leonard


 All right, STOP!
 Just to let you know .
 At 55 corners you need 2 braces on each corner thats 110 and a brace every 7' so add +20=130.
  I have worked with both of the systems you are looking at and this would be a hard build for any one.
 This is your first build, and it will get away from you with out all of this bracing in place.
 A plan like this is what makes icf cost more than stick frame.
Now the cost of bracing is so irrelevant here, (you need to keep the wall strait)its the plan that was at fault here.
 Any installer can see the what is going on here, you are not alone with your problem.
 When you cut your walls up and turn them in and out every 5'  because an architect thinks this will look good.  The home owner has looked it over and has paid for the drawings and has fall in love with the plan.
 Now you ask how much will it cost to build?
 The price of the roof alone is $15,000.00 more then a 6 corner house.(ask the truss company and the roofer)
  Now the siding has to be all cut up from 12' lengths and more corners on the job (labor is higher and so is the price)So add $10,000
 Are you seeing what I am seeing here or are you just in love with the plan?
I will not try to change you plan if I am bidding on it, Because it's what you say you want and what can I do just tell you this is what it will cost.
 Now the home owner gets all the numbers in and see he has to cut the price down.
 Well I can build the walls! ( The biggest savings on the project) And the just stack and pour sales people will say you can do it, But they will not stand behind the work.
Everything in the build works off the walls and when they are out of place (and this happens a lot on icfs done by new bits) now the price you saved on doing it your self is gone and you will even pay more than you would have to have a pro come in and do it.
 Now its the icf that is to blame its junk and its to hard to work with, the stack and pour guys checks in the bank and he can't fix it, he did not do anything wrong. (BS)
 Its not the exception here, its what I seen way to many times.
 First lets look at the 55 corners, why? Curb appeal, that is an opinion that I can't wrap my head around at that price tag. Their are so many other ways to get the same curb appeal or Even more.
 If we get down to 12 corners now we have the money to do so much more than before.
 This is a easer and less costly build and a new bit will have an easer time and better end product .
Now 30 less braces at $140.00 roof 15,000.00 siding 10,000.00 you do the math.
 Now lets look at having a pro come in and his bracing system is in the bid.
do you see what I am getting at here or is the 55 corner build still in the way?.
 My numbers are high but the point is icf's go up in price with every turn of a corner and so dose you building even with stick build.
  TF will turn easy I have worked with it , its not a bad block for that many corners.
 Just brace it a lot.
 Just the way I see it , I hope it helps you see this in a new light.(May be go back to the drawing board)
 Find a icf contractor and ask him for input on the build and foot print with price in mind.

Thier just an others consultans oppinion, (for free)  
Find an installer will stand behind the work that is done with a contract and a +/- of  1/4" of location of walls. 
This will save you more than money can buy.
Their out thier and theiy will travel to your build.


  




Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin
ICFconstructionUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1324
Avatar

--
07 Dec 2008 12:35 PM
Amen! Hire an experienced ICF sub-contractor. It pays to specialize, if you are serious about starting an ICF contracting company see if you can help the one you hire, than your first solo project should be a simple one.

I have about 170 Reechcraft 10 and 12' with some tall wall turnbuckles and 48 Giraffe with the 15' tall wall kits. I like the Giraffe better but use the Reechcraft more because I have a dedicated trailer for them. But to resell bracing would be a poor investment.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
lkazanov2User is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:177

--
07 Dec 2008 03:05 PM
Guys,

Thanks for all your comments and replies.  I chose the system because of the ease of creating corners and material waste.  A block system would be difficult.  If it were a basic colonial and the plans drawn for the block in mind then block would be ideal.  I will try to attach a JPG of the house outline so you guys get the flavor for what I am doing.  Each 45 leg in "bay" is about 4'.

Leonard



Attachment: Exterior Wall Outline 03.jpg

ICFconstructionUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1324
Avatar

--
07 Dec 2008 06:57 PM
Hire it done or you may be sorry.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
dmaceldUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1465
Avatar

--
07 Dec 2008 07:27 PM
You need to take a close hard look at building codes. There is a minimum required length of straight solid wall with respect to corners so you will have adequate shear strength. Off the top of my head I don't think there is any way the wall on the top of the sketch would fly if it were frame construction. It may not fly even being concrete. Are the bays primarily windows? If so, give consideration to bay windows in a straight wall. Stronger construction and less money.

In many jurisdictions the building official counts every corner to calculate a building permit fee. I wouldn't be surprised if the part of the permit fee attributed to corners isn't greater than the rest of the plan.


Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:878

--
07 Dec 2008 07:43 PM
That is not a DIY project, not even a new ICF installer should be considering that...unless time is not of the essence

Without dimensions I came up with 113 braces

Mac...I know what you are saying, lately when I have run into this many short walls I have been getting additional rebar patterns to increase the sheer values. Burying beams (concrete) in the floor system and roof area will help alot as well and increasing from 6" to 8" makes a difference.



Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
lkazanov2User is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:177

--
07 Dec 2008 08:32 PM
Guys,

Thanks for all your feedback and concern. I have chosen TF system for its ease of corners. Our building department has signed off on the project as well as my civil engineer. Our permitting fee is based on sq feet, not corners. Most of you are concerned about the bays. They are 4' and the window opening is 2'-5" (width). The main concern is the rear bay with 3 large windows. There will be double rows of vertical rebar between the openings to act as vertical columns (recommended by engineer). I wish the architect would like squares but he does not. Certainly a very nice square colonial 6 outside corners and 2 inside would be the easiest (especially if sized for a specific block), but we are well down this road. Just wish me the best as I do for all of you. I continue to be grateful for this forum and all of the knowledge that I have gained from all of you.

Leonard



renangleUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:304

--
08 Dec 2008 07:13 AM
Leonard,

I'm a distributer in central-western Virginia with a very experienced ICF installer in Harrisonburg, VA that may consider that job (depending to a certain degree when you want to start). He has about 140 braces that he would include them in his install price. There are very experienced ICF professionals here that are giving you a firm warning on a project of this technical magnitude and they are right. You have 1 shot at getting your walls right when you pour and if error(s) occur you will probably be out more money than if you hired a subcontractor to build it.

If you make wood braces for this type of project it will take a lot of time and material (i.e., cost) to create. If you elect to move forward by yourself with wood braces, I wish you all the luck in the world!

renangle


arkie6User is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1453

--
08 Dec 2008 09:57 PM
The Lite-Form installation manual available online has instructions and drawings for making all wood bracing and shows an option with turnbuckles.  It also has instructions for using their scaffold brackets that attach to metal studs which form the vertical braces.
Posted By lkazanov2 on 12/04/2008 4:08 PM
Guys,

Need some help on your favorite brands.  I have looked at the Giraffe website.  Seems interesting.  Also anybody with rough plans for homemade ICF brace?  What turnbuckle used?

Thanks,

Leonard






You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 3123 > >>


Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 195 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 195
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement