I plan on having a conventional brick exterior installed on my ICF home.  This is a one story home with full walk-out basement.

My question is what do people generally use to tie the brick to the concrete wall? 

Standard framed construction around here uses those corrugated galvanized strips nailed to the studs every ~2' and then imbeded in the brick morter.  Is screwing these same metal ties to the ICF form tie pads sufficient?  My back wall will be ~20' high.

I have seen the adjustable ICF brick ties that get imbeded in the concrete before the pour (Reward walls has them listed on their website) and like the idea of having a direct brick-metal-concrete connection.  Has anyone used these?  Any comments good or bad?  Cost?

Another idea I had was to get some #9 galvanized tie wire and imbed in the wall before the pour ~2' OC so that I have a loop that extends out from the wall ~4" and is tied to the form web on the inside such that the poured concrete would lock it in place.  The problem I see with this is the lack of vertical adjustability such that if the tie didn't line up on a horizontal morter joint then it likely wouldn't get imbeded in the brick by the brick mason.

Any comments or suggestions appreciated.

Alan

Ask your local inspector what he is expecting to see.

I have (In Ontario) attached them to the webs, no issues

In California I have special ordered BT's from Simpson 12" long and embeded them in the foam prior to pour. Another method a guy did on a project I did was metal wire about the thickness of a coat hanger wire, shaped like a Jesus fish you see on peoples cars (No offense to anyone) and had his laborer push them into the ICF prior to pour.

Both methods worked fine and I don't know the price of the part you are seeing, but it looks expensive compared to other alternatives.

Thanks for the input Chris.

No building inspections required where I am building.

I like the idea of the 12" long brick ties. I didn't realize they made them that long. Most I have seen are only 6"-7" long.

The #9 wire method to tie the brick to the wall that I described above sounds similar to what you described regarding the wire. Although, #9 tie wire (9 ga) is somewhat larger in diameter than a coat hanger.

12" BT's are special order, give them 2-3 weeks lead time

Brick ties attached to webs/ties are what I usually see.

For the 20' wall I would probably insert some type of tie into the concrete core, however, screwed ties to the web should be sufficient for most veneer walls.

One issue though, I would not trust many of the brick ledge bumpouts or details some mfg profess to provide adequate bearing for brick/stone for any hgt; I would limit the loading based on how the ledge is detailed and your own judgement as to weight applied!

I am not using an ICF brick ledge. I really don't put much trust in them either. Plus, they are hard to waterproof properly. I decided to just have the brick mason build up to grade level where needed with 8" concrete blocks set on the footing. I decided to use 8" blocks (CMU) so that no masonry ties would be required to pass through my waterproofing membrane below grade. On the back side where the wall will be ~20' high, the brick will be set right on the footing.

Arkie,

Have you considered using solid 4" thick concrete blocks instead of the regular hollow core 8"?  You might want to compare price on the two types of units and also check with your brick layer for his preferred foundation for brick. 

Are you aware that the mortar for the bricks should be a different type for below grade?

Although you do not have a code to worry about, I would still use some type of brick ties to attach the brick to the ICF wall.  As a general rule, brick ties should be installed 2' on center in non-seismic areas.

I have seen some brick layers quietly avoid using brick ties even in areas where the code was applicable. 
Since the code official does not stay on the job like a superintendent might, a lot of things may not get done.

I did consider solid 4" concrete blocks below grade, but felt that it would be best if these narrow blocks were tied to the concrete wall. That would require penetrations for the masonry ties through my below-grade waterproofing membrane. I didn't want that.

So I elected to go with hollow 8" concrete blocks below grade since I felt that these could be installed on the footing and up against the wall without any masonry tie to the wall. I could probably do this with 6" hollow core concrete blocks as well and I may end up doing that. Cost or installation wise, I don't think there is much difference between 6" and 8" hollow blocks.

The concrete block portion under the brick veneer will only be ~7' high at the highest point. At the top of the concrete blocks will be a 4" thick solid cap block. I will then apply metal flashing from the ICF exterior wall face over the top of this cap block. I plan to cut a groove through the exterior foam all the way to the concrete face. The metal flashing will be installed up to the face of the concrete wall and grouted in place to serve as a termite barrier (I'm still working on that detail). Then the brick veneer will start on top of that.

Another advantage I see to this approach is that the hollow core concrete block will provide back fill protection for the waterproofing membrane and with weep holes in the bottom row of blocks will provide a path for water seepage to flow down and out my exterior drain tile.

All of the bricks will be tied to the concrete wall with some method. I just haven't decide what to use for those masonry ties at this point, which was the purpose of this thread.

I plan to be on-site when the brick is being installed to make sure the ties get installed properly. I've seen too many corners get cut around here as well.

Use this "Tie-Key" http://www.rewardwalls.com/insulated-concrete-forms-resources/insulated-concrete-forms-ancillary-products.php

Alton, When the brick layers don't use brick ties, what do they do? Is the brick free standing?

I would not worry about using ICF brickledge, but the right specs for rebar must be used. We have put a 4"brick ledge that supports 30' to 40 of stone.

With a basement I don't think it is practical to put CMUs on the footing. Waterproofing is tougher but the brickledge and waterproofing top should be just below grade. if you use dimple board it is full of holes anyway and peal and stick or spray on works fine on a brick ledge.

Brad,

Yes, the brick is free standing.  Only gravity holds it in place.  The smallest tremor will bring down the brick.  Contrary to many a homeowner's view, brick veneer on a home is not structural.  Brick veneer actually needs to be supported by the structure.  Leaving out the brick ties may save the bricklayer a few minutes, but it lowers the quality of the veneer.

Not too many brick veneer homes are moved from one location to another with the brick intact.  But when they are moved, it sure is nice to have brick ties installed correctly.

All brands of ICF brick ledges will not necessarily support a lot of brick.  Most of the weight should be carried by the wall through brick ties and not on the ledge.  That is what I have been told by ICF companies and also by Superior Walls.

That "Tie-Key" is what I was referring to in my original post.  I wonder how much those things cost?  I would need 600-700 of them based on 2' OC vertical and horizontal.  It would cost ~$50 for that many 6" corrugated brick ties.  I'm guessing a factor of 10 more for that many Tie-Keys.

The "Tie-Key" is a Reward Wall Systems, Inc. exclusive product. The main advantage that the "Tie-Key" has is that they actually embed a loop into the resulting concrete wall. This makes a direct physical attachment from the concrete wall to the brick veneer, unlike traditional ties which would only connect the brick veneer to the plastic web in the ICF. Please contact me, or any Reward distributor (or dealer) for pricing.

Project has been delayed and I still haven't decided which way to go with my brick ties.  

Here is another embedded option that I found that looks promising, but likey expensive also:

ICF - MASONRY VENEER TIE SYSTEM

Wind-lock now carries the tieKey, which was developed exclusively for use with ICFs. Give them a call when you are ready to resume your proect.

FERO all the way.

A lot of good ties are made and some noted above. Attaching them to the ICF ties is fine with most, embedding in concrete is better.
But PLEASE DO NOT use the corrugated ties. Even in the rare circumstance that they're installed correctly, they just don't work. I've seen way too many houses with the brick pulled away after a wind storm. Notice that they're not allowed in commercial construction in most places.

Check out the various options from BLOK-LOK www.blok-lok.com I have a rep coming in tomorrow to show me some specific hardware options to use with ICFs. DJB

Attaching the ties to the webs of the ICF should be sufficient as long as you use the proper fasteners as recommended by the ICF manufacturer, so as to obtain the proper pull out capacity. The furring strips are embedded in the concrete, therefore you have created a path to the concrete for the load of your bricks or stone.