I always use this type of product - one row in the second course of block and another second from the top (I used to put it at the top, but it was just one more thing for concrete to splash off and make a mess). I know of many installers that use it only once or some not at all - others will put it every second course.

One definite thing I will say - after using the truss style ("zig-zag") and ladder style (square cross members) - the ladder style is FAR superior, in that it is less obstructive while vibrating.

PS - Bruce. Please do not suggest that an installer that uses a product other that Polycrete will end up with walls that are not plumb/straight. I have never used your product and I am very proud to say that my ICF projects are straight, square and plumb (and no rasp). I will assume Polycrete is a good product, since I have no reason to beliieve otherwise, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Many ways to skin that cat. Some just take a little longer and the sharper your knife the better.

Ive only built one house so far so obviously Im far from an expert but I did build it entirely myself with help only for the pour so I had alot of time to think about different methods of keeping the walls straight.

I built with Nudura and used the form lock but wanted extra stiffness in my walls

I snapped a line on the footer , glued the block with foam and used 2X4 cleats on the corners only, nothing moved,this was effective and cheaper than metal track

As I was kind of anal about the walls straightness I used in addition to the form lock 12 foot lenghts of 1X3 screwed together to form a stiff 90 deg angle and attached this allong the perimeter near the top of the pour, overlaping joints by three feet
I was even able to lock the corners together this way

Having said this I feel the best idea is to mae sure you are using more than adequate bracing,  spaced at the minimum recommended intervals or closer , this isn't the place to cheap out and try to work with less or cut corners

My 2 cents
Peter

It is "cheaper" only if you ignore the labor cost. If you are a DIY-er and consider your labor to have no value, then your method is 'cheaper". I know many of you guys think I am just a self-promoter and probably a fool, but this industry seems so utterly devoid of an accumulated knowledge of basic economic principles, that I feel repeatedly called upon to share.

This continuous "pushing of product" becomes annoying
I believe the topic has been hashed over so many times it is annoying
If a particular block is made of gold and self leveling and straightening it is not worth a pinch of coon shit if the company dosent return inquiries
The op was asking for opinions on form lock and their effectivness on keeping his wall straight, nothing more

Well. Pete. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. It is no different on this forum: The price of accurate information to the uninitiated is repetition from the experts. Whenever someone posts erroneous or inaccurate information, they have to be corrected. When someone posts a myth, it has to be busted, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Bruce, why do you continue to push Polycrete in these threads that are clearly discussing DIY projects?

You have written in the past "Polycrete in the USA does not sell to DIY-ers. We sell only through installers,".

Here is the link to the thread earlier this year where I got that quote: http://greenbuildingweb.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topic/aff/4/aft/78335/afpg/2/Default.aspx

You're right. We do not sell to DIY-ers. But I am irrepressive and always hoping to enlighten!
Seriously, believe it or not, it is not only DIY-ers that read these threads. In fact, there is surprisingly large audience of folks who plan to hire a contractor to build their ICF building and want to collect as much info as possible on the various product offerings. I am frequently contacted offline by folks wanting more specific info on my posts. I am careful to publicly supply info only germane to the thread's subject in order to avoid the allegations of "advertising". We strive to educate, and educate we will come hell or high water.
But the final reason is that I have been threatened offline by some lowlifes on this forum, and I can't keep my defiant gene under wraps.

Bruce;

After reading your last post I must comment...to which I have been refraining from on previous posts. You have made a critical error in your speech...

I as an installer of ICF chose my preferred installation methods, they are tried and proven to work for me on my projects. If ever a salesman showed up and demanded that I must do it his way...well I hope he has his tool bags with him...because the project will be his.

If a particular manufacturer recommends certain accessories for their product than it should be used...especially by a DIYer since any reputable distributor would be on site tech'ing the job they want to make sure the project is as flawless as possible, retain a satisfied customer for future referrals and make the customer feel they got great service.

I along with a number of the other professional installers on this site are here to help promote ICF in general and to assist not only DIYer's with their project but also to help each other with trade tricks. I.E. I have many times embedded floor joists and had the sub-floor installed prior to pour...do you really think I'm going to promote that to a first time, one time DIY builder?

So even though you are here to help the DIYer please do not promote that if they used your product it could have been easier or better. I have news for you...every single ICF has tricks or quirks depending on how you look at it, I.E. Some need tape, some need foam, some need lots of strapping, some need blocklock, some need track, some can somehow engineer rebar at 4' o.c. While the next one needs 16" o.c.. I did one years ago if the slump exceeded 4" the block would have stability issues and on others the ready mix shipped about a 8" slump and we used it without issue.

But a lot of this is not necessary information for the DIYer.

The IBC and NBC were really slow to recognize ICF and put it in the code, now we have some consistency which has gotten it there...let's keep it there and let's keep telling the DIYer how to do the job...by the text book.

To the original OP, if your supplier has and recommends blocklock, or whatever name they are calling it, I recommend using it.

Thanks for the advice, Chris Johnson. That's basically how I resolve my question. If the distributor recommended it, beyond an attempt to sell more product, I would use it. For the blocks I finally chose, Arxx, my advisor/distributor says I should be fine to get away without it.

And BrucePolycrete, I've already told you I must discount everything you say because your very first comment in this thread was an outright lie: "foam panels and plastic ties are not strong enough to stand up to the concrete when pumping". You are not welcome to comment in this thread.

Nat, my man, you are most certainly free to admire or ignore anything that I or anyone else writes here. This is still America after all.

Chris has an excellent point when he talks about all of the tricks and kooky things he has to do to get different ICFs to result in a decent wall. But even the industry's flagship trade journal has concluded that the biggest hurdle this industry has to overcome is the lack of a base of qualified installers.

My argument has two parts:
(1) The industry made a critical error promoting ICF as a DIY project. It isn't.
(2) Many of the installers are perfectly capable. They just need a big, solid, robust, professional, top quality product to install.

That's all. Have at it.

I am inclined to agree with Chris Johnson on this as I feel (like others) that Bruce needs to refrain from simply plugging his blcok, especially when the subject of the post is like this one we have here.

A person can diy, with proper guidence especially when they try to find help on this blog. When we come upon a diy, I feel we try get an idea where they are located, we advise them to a distributer to ensure they they manage the project or perhaps find a qualified installer nearby that someone may know, and then allow the diy the ability to make their best, most imformed decision. If a project is overly complicated, we will advise them to seek additional help which I feel is well documented. I don't see how trying to guide them is a bad thing, especially if there is no real gain for those trying to help.

For Bruce to continuously come on here to state why the product he manufactures is the best, has begun to frustrate some and isn't answering the question. I also feel that it is beginning to hurt his credibility as others mentioning it leads me to feel that way. As professionals in the ICF industry we have the tools to "pick" on the competition's block and that has been done in the past, but it has stopped for the most part. Bruce is one of the very few manufactures that posts on here, so he has an obvious agenda. I do like the fact that many on here may promote their block from time to time, but I feel that there has been an unwritten rule to refrain from such behavior for the good of the industry.

I hope that Bruce can go back to simply answering the questions being asked objectively and moreso helping to promote the ICF industtry positively. There are several on here that have successfully completed a diy ICF house, hopefully those success stories were also aided by the help they received here.

Gentlemen,
My focus is always on the either the subject of the thread or the previous post. If proponents of other ICFs don't like to hear about the qualities of Polycrete Big Block that address the issue at hand, or if they don't like to be reminded about the failings of their favored product, they have my sympathies.

Ren, I don't heve "credibility issues," because we don't play fast and loose with the truth. We even have people who disagree with us publicly here send messages offline that AGREE with us. We're not about to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that problems in this industry and problems with many of the crummy products offered don't exist.

I would say you kind of played "fast and loose with the truth" when you stated that other products need this type of accessory since the foam is not strong enough to withstand the force of the concrete. This accessories ONLY purpose is to help stiffen up the wall and help keep it straight - it DOES NOT provide any strength against the force of the concrete and definitely DOES NOT contribute to structural strength or replace rebar in any way (not something that Buce said, just an important note).

Other products can be poured without this accessory and straight walls are still easily achieved. Personally I find it is easier/less time consuming to have straight walls with this type of accessory incorporated into the ICF.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to note (back to the original post) is to be VERY careful when staightening walls - DO NOT leave until it is absolutely perfect. Sometimes this takes a bit of time and work, but if the walls are not straight there is no changing it the day after the pour. Bruce - please don't claim that Polycrete can guarantee a straight wall and by not using this product you will be stuck with a crooked wall that can't be moved the next day. If a wall is not straight, the installer quit too early - plain and simple.

Thanks ICFDBdr for your final comment. I have read numerous times that you plumb as you stack, before the pour, during the pour, after the vibration, after the pour and just before you quit for the day. I will be certain to follow that advice. I plan to have a dedicated bracing adjustment team or two on the pour day.

And regarding the level of DIY, I am extremely "handy", having already jacked up half the house, leveled it (it was built in 1905 on brick piers and 4x6 posts), excavated over 40 yards of dirt via backhoe, remodeled much of the interior including adding and removing load-bearing walls, added interior stairs, replumbed the whole house, rewired the whole house, etc. I know my limits though, and know that this ICF job will be a success.

Oh, my bad Bruce. I was unaware you have have such a support system that sends you those private messages. Thank you for clearing that up. That said though, I am confused once again by something (it happens a lot ask my parents). Back in February Henry Riesenberg asked following question about a diy project:

"From people that have used many makes of blocks. which block would you use on you own home? Fox or Reward ? with similar support from company and a diy project??"

You responded as follows:

"If you want a knock-down block, you should take a look at Polycrete Flex 850. 4mm steel wire cross ties, 1' x 8', so it's a big block. Type 3 expanded polystyrene panels are denser and stronger than most, so blow outs are virtually eliminated. Blocks connect by means of a solid T-shaped polymer fixture attached to the top edge that slips into a groove on adjoining panels.

Here's a link http://www.polycrete.com/en/flex850"

Why was there no mention from you abouot using a certified installer (though you did make one later). I found the intial comment, especailly to a diyer rather confusing, given your position. Was your opinion different when you made that post and the later one?

ICFBdr. We make no guarantees except that the product will perform as promised if installation instructions are followed. I like your comment, "If a wall is not straight, the installer quit too early - plain and simple." Sounds nice. Sounds like a Hallmark card. I wish it was true, but it isn't. Unless you count rasping time as well. And what about the guy who didn't glue his blocks to the footer so the wall walked around? Did he stop too early too? Spare me this stuff, please.

nat,

sorry for the quick hijack btw, it is sometimes a necessary evil. I also concur with ICFBdr.

"This accessories ONLY purpose is to help stiffen up the wall and help keep it straight - it DOES NOT provide any strength against the force of the concrete." Don't you think the force of the concrete makes the wall move? Cheers!

Actually, no, the force of concrete does not cause the wall to move at all - not if you know what you are doing.   Here's forty feet poured in two pours and you can still go check it if you like - 901 North Main Street, Weatherford Texas.   Bring your micrometer.  Cheers, I mean Regards.

Why is the first 15 feet showing oxidation?  Because it took the steel guys 2 months before we could come back.