kriding
New Member
Posts:2
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| 11 Apr 2011 01:27 PM |
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What is the easiest/best method to secure wood floor (joists/trusses) to an ICF wall? What are the options and how do they compare?
- rim board
- Watkins ICF Joist hanger
- LAVANN ICF Hanger
- NUDURA Hanger
- Simpson hanger
- ICF Connect Joist Hanger
- others?
Are they specific to a type of block, or can they be used on any block? Can they be used for roof trusses too? Any opinions, preferences or things to watch out for?
Thanks!
K |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 11 Apr 2011 02:50 PM |
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You'll get no agreement on this topic, mostly because different builders find different systems work best for them and for their own particular way of doing things. The fact you are facing several options should make that obvious!  That being said, I used the Simpson ICF connect hangers for my DIY house. Two advantages I found. First, it made it easy to assure the ledger board was level all the way around the house because the walls, up to just above floor level, were in place and stable by that time. It was a simple matter to fasten the ledger at the correct height. Second advantage, really of using the ledger board, was that it allowed last minute adjustments in joist spacing necessitated by last minute changes in plumbing, or whatever. |
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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kriding
New Member
Posts:2
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| 11 Apr 2011 07:31 PM |
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Thanks for the info!
A bit of background ... my husband and I are planning on building with ICF and are just starting with our research. Many of the blocks are interchangeable as far as features go, but we want to make sure we don't choose one that limits our options with the rest of our project. We still haven't decided on concrete or wood floors and the method of attaching wood floors was a particular curiosity. I've seen the metal "I" beams embedded right in the concrete of the wall, but obviously, that doesn't work with wood. Does the wooden beam butt up against the interior foam or does it need to come in contact with the concrete (ie cut out the foam)?
All of the hangers I saw looked very similar and am wondering if each work better for certain applications/circumstances or if they are all basically the same and just pick the cheapest. Or is this something the engineer will just choose for us once we finish the plans? |
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scicf
New Member
Posts:67
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| 11 Apr 2011 08:51 PM |
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I generally use anchor bolts on a one story home or on the first level on a multi-story home. Some people use them for every floor, however I prefer not to have a rim board interfere with my bracing. On multi level homes I use ICFVL-W from Simpson. These are installed before the pour and set to a line. Anchor bolts do require cutting the form to let the concrete flow to the ledger, the Simpsons do not require this (only slots for the "legs"). |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 12 Apr 2011 06:27 AM |
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Posted By kriding on 11 Apr 2011 07:31 PM
I've seen the metal "I" beams embedded right in the concrete of the wall, but obviously, that doesn't work with wood.
Actually, you can embed the wood I-Joist...with the proper prep work. But that;'s another story.
Are you doing the work yourself or hiring contractors? Will the ICF contractor also be the framing contractor? I would recommend if hiring out this work to discuss 'preferred' methods with them, see what they like and what works for them. No point choosing an item only to find out the installer charges more or is uncomfortable with it. |
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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Baldwin2014
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 12 Apr 2011 02:57 PM |
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rimboards are used when your floor is on top of ICF walls and you are planning not to continue up with ICF.
Forget the Watkins and Lavan - probably the same company lol.. small time guys.
nudura does not have its own hanger.. what they show is ICF Connect. Tedious boring slow method!
Simpson - great but can be a bit pricey
stick to J-bolts. Cheap. Fast. assemble the ledgerboard with the J-bolts (nuts on both sides of ledger and place it all in prior to the pour. Fasten the LVL or 2x12 to the plastic ties.
Nuff said. |
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roch
New Member
Posts:25
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| 12 Apr 2011 08:20 PM |
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From Baldwin 2112 "stick to J-bolts. Cheap. Fast. assemble the ledgerboard with the J-bolts (nuts on both sides of ledger and place it all in prior to the pour. Fasten the LVL or 2x12 to the plastic ties."
Sorry Baldwin2012 but no engineer or building inspector will ever sign off on your project if you use this method |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 12 Apr 2011 09:22 PM |
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Why not? I've done it many times myself, only thing I do different is you need to place a piece of peel and stick on the back of the rim board where the concrete will come in contact. |
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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wes
Advanced Member
Posts:810
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| 13 Apr 2011 08:07 AM |
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roch,
you may want to reconsider. we were using baldwins method of attachment before any of those alternatives existed. No problems.
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| Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected] |
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roch
New Member
Posts:25
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| 16 Apr 2011 07:53 AM |
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Baldwin does not mention anywhere cutting out the foam around the anchor bolts,to prevent shearing |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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ICFBdr
Basic Member
Posts:238
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| 18 Apr 2011 08:29 PM |
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Personally, I like the NUDURA/ICF-Connect system - fast, and easy (not to mention the least expensive, as you remove an expensive LVL rim-board).
Simpson Strong Tie works very well also - same concept as anchor bolts, with half the work, as you do not need to remove the foam to prevent shear (this is time consuming, as well as not entirely efficient, as you are removing insulation).
I would recommend the ICF-Connect system for floor systems and Simpson Strong Tie for decks (be careful - I have been told that this is not allowed in some areas). Be sure to protect the metal plates in either of these systems from coming in direct contact with Treated lumber, however, as this will react and could cause corrosion. |
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Magnus
New Member
Posts:1
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| 02 Sep 2012 10:20 AM |
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I too have a similar question.
I am currently planning a budgeting for an ICF house but with some timberframe elements. I want the floors to be supported by heavy oak beams and the roof by timberframe trusses. I have not found hangers large or heavy enough for the beams and, since they will be exposed, they just don't fit the look I'm after. Do any of you know of any steel hangers that would look more appropriate or do think a ledger board or brick ledges at those heights may be a better way to support the beams?
I too was concerned by the 2-5 inches of leverage that would be placed on the hangers if the styrofoam were not cut away.
Cheers,
Magnus |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 02 Sep 2012 12:18 PM |
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I want the floors to be supported by heavy oak beams Why would you do that? Is that just for the appearance of timber frame? if the styrofoam were not cut away. Look at the technical details associated with whatever system. The foam is cut away before the pour so that the hardware has appropriate contact with the concrete. In all the cases I have seen, you need to cut back the foam to create a larger base than bearing surface which reflects the realities of stress in concrete. For large beams, forming pockets in the concrete would get you better support than using hangers. |
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 03 Sep 2012 10:06 AM |
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what about attaching trusses? I know the easiest is to bolt the sill plate to the top of the wall and attach it with hurricane ties. However I want to recess the plate. How are people doing it this way? One thought was to notch out the foam on the inside at each truss and expose the plate. But is there a better way? The ties I have used in the past is the H1 and H3 from Simpson. |
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allan-sf
New Member
Posts:14
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| 13 Sep 2012 08:04 PM |
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Posted By lzerarc on 03 Sep 2012 10:06 AM
what about attaching trusses? I know the easiest is to bolt the sill plate to the top of the wall and attach it with hurricane ties. However I want to recess the plate. How are people doing it this way? One thought was to notch out the foam on the inside at each truss and expose the plate. But is there a better way? The ties I have used in the past is the H1 and H3 from Simpson.
ICF-Connect has a roof truss connector too that looks equally easy. You'd probably have to shim it with something. They only allow pressure treated to contact concrete in many areas. http://www.icfconnect.com/roof.htm |
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Titan ICF
New Member
Posts:61
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| 26 Nov 2012 11:11 PM |
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I prefer the Simpson icfvl's. You can install them rather quickly and efficiently without cutting tons of holes in the block and putting lots of shavings into the wall cavity. The bolts are fine for certain cases. For me it takes too much time to do the bolts etc. especially if your ledger bolts on the board settle or move after the concrete sets. With the icfvl's if your doing the walls only, the framer can adjust his plate somewhat if needed later. Upset a framer because your ledger isn't his way, not so fun. Everyone has their opinions and experience. Your engineer should specify what type of load you have. Then you can make your choice. For most, they have no idea of what the Simpson icfvl's even are..... Simpson is not cheap, but what's your time worth. For the most part what you may need will be in the book. There are some other options for specific situations such as corners etc. |
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| "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair |
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Titan ICF
New Member
Posts:61
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| 26 Nov 2012 11:23 PM |
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Top plate is a wide open option. Framers love the wood as it is normal for them. Some engineers will specify imbeds. A lot will depend upon your complexity of the roof. Single treated 2x8 offset to outside and install h2.5's on both sides is an option. This will allow you to cut the block offset on the top course. You leave room room for the double or single plate on outside and cut the inside of the block to be at the bottom of the ceiling joists. This gives you a good thermal break. It's more time to cut the last block and you will end up with more waste. Another option If you use a good block, you can use the cut half of a true double or single top plate (full buck across) over depending upon the last cut and the plate height. I prefer h-10's on the ends but the engineer should specify if he's doing the job. Lots of options. |
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| "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair |
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tswitos
New Member
Posts:1
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| 09 Dec 2017 01:39 PM |
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kriding,
I know this topic is a bit old, but did you ever decide which was the best joist hanger system? |
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