What I noticed with ICFs is that the windows are either really recessed on the interior or exterior, or a little of both. I would guess that this is because of the thickness of ICF is greater than that of a 2x6 wall .

Does anyone have links to pics on the different architectural finishes people have done to their windows to accommodate the wider window bays?

I don't have any links, but below are some google sketchup images I grabbed off the net some time back that show roughly what I am planning on doing:

1.  On the sides of the windows I plan on returning at ~45 degrees to make the window opening look less like a tunnel.  This requires making the window opening in the concrete a little wider than needed just for the window, so pre-planning is necessary.  It also requires building in the window casing with additional 2x lumber.  The windows will be mounted flush with the exterior ICF.  I will add a 2x4 to the inside sides of the window buck flush with the exterior, but allow for 1" of exterior foam board strips to provide a thermal break between the window flange and the 2x4.  From the inside edge of the 2x4 to the inside edge of the ICF wall will be tapered at 45 degrees.  This will require some shaping of the ICF foam on the inside edge.
2.  The sides of the window casing will be moisture resistant sheetrock and painted to look just like the walls.
3.  For the inside window ledge, I plan on using ceramic tile with a bullnose inside edge.

Why would you need moisture resistant sheetrock by the window? Do ICF window designs leak?

Is there any links to see this setup already done and finished? I looked around and could not find anything.

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 12:49 PM
Why would you need moisture resistant sheetrock by the window? Do ICF window designs leak?

No, ICF window designs do not leak, but with any home, there is the potential that the window frames can sweat when it is very cold outside and humidity levels are higher than optimum on the inside.  With high quality windows, the potential is reduced, but for the small amount of moisture resistant sheetrock needed for around the windows and the low cost adder over standard sheetrock, it is cheap insurance. 

Another possible scenario is that if you have the windows open in the fall or spring and you get an unexpected rain shower that blows water onto the window sill or casings the potential for damage is lessened with the moisture resistant sheetrock casing and ceramic tile sill.

Which brings me to the next question. How does one run security alarm wiring to the windows? In a wood frame home, they would be run behind the drywall, in between the studs, and then brought to the window sill where the magnets can be placed.

I still wish there was some sample pictures that can be shown on how the interior window is finished architecturally. How the window sill looks, do they drywall it or put a wood sill plate?

Here are some threads from the past discussing deep windows. There are some pics showing what I did in the first one.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/52284/afv/topic/afpgj/4/Default.aspx#37598

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/31654/afv/topic/afpgj/5/Default.aspx#19693

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/50054/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx#35600

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/69764/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx#50820

The above links are no good...

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 09:59 PM
The above links are no good...

You have to copy and paste them into the address bar. This forum software doesn't make it simple to create an actual link.

3. For the inside window ledge, I plan on using ceramic tile with a bullnose inside edge.

I've seen people use granite which looks really good there, too. Granite in window ledge sizes is often waste and can be had very cheaply.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 27 Nov 2011 10:05 PM

3. For the inside window ledge, I plan on using ceramic tile with a bullnose inside edge.

I've seen people use granite which looks really good there, too. Granite in window ledge sizes is often waste and can be had very cheaply.

OK, got it to work. THANKS!

You did a great job finishing the interior window trim.  I would probably use the same finishing method. I might try going with a maple wood framing around the window area. EXAMPLE  (go to the 4th photo on the right - it shows the maple design)


I am also a fan of casement windows. They provide the best seal for a window that opens. I HATE SLIDERS! The home I am currently in has sliders and they ALWAYS leak in heavy rains and the wind intrusion is a joke, you can actually feel the wind come in. When they leak the water builds in the channels and then spills out onto the interior wall. The drains are clear but in heavy rains the drain cannot drain fast enough and the water spills over the channel onto the wall. Did I mention that I HATE SLIDERS???

So overall do you like your ICF home? Any regrets or problems?

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 03:58 PM

I still wish there was some sample pictures that can be shown on how the interior window is finished architecturally. How the window sill looks, do they drywall it or put a wood sill plate?

Here are a couple of pictures of the interior detail on two types of windows I incorporated in my ICF house.


First is a casement window, recessed with wrapped drywall and a granite sill.






Second is a set of casements with rolling shutters.  The windows are recessed on both the interior and exterior.   The rolling shutters are stored within the ICF wall and accessible through the panels shown at the top of the windows.  Note that the shutters are controlled by cranks and are deployed (down) in this image.




When the rolliing shuttles are retracted (up) all the way, they are not visible on the exterior of the building.

--Clark

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 03:58 PM
Which brings me to the next question. How does one run security alarm wiring to the windows? In a wood frame home, they would be run behind the drywall, in between the studs, and then brought to the window sill where the magnets can be placed.

I still wish there was some sample pictures that can be shown on how the interior window is finished architecturally. How the window sill looks, do they drywall it or put a wood sill plate?

As long as you do the wiring before you put your drywall up you would do it just like all other wiring. Hot knife or electric chainsaw to cut the chases in the interior foam, then fill the chases in with spray foam once wired.

Posted By Clark on 02 Dec 2011 06:27 PM


Second is a set of casements with rolling shutters.  The windows are recessed on both the interior and exterior.   The rolling shutters are stored within the ICF wall and accessible through the panels shown at the top of the windows.  Note that the shutters are controlled by cranks and are deployed (down) in this image.




When the rolliing shuttles are retracted (up) all the way, they are not visible on the exterior of the building.

--Clark

In regards to the shutters, how are they installed within the ICF wall? They would have to be installed on the OUTSIDE of the ICF wall in order to cover the exterior side of the window, correct? How then are they accessed from the INSIDE of the wall? I am confused.


Are the shutters mainly for privacy or do you live in a tornado or hurricane zone? Have you had any problems with them (binding, falling off tracks)?

Posted By Lbear on 03 Dec 2011 03:45 AM

In regards to the shutters, how are they installed within the ICF wall? They would have to be installed on the OUTSIDE of the ICF wall in order to cover the exterior side of the window, correct? How then are they accessed from the INSIDE of the wall? I am confused.


Are the shutters mainly for privacy or do you live in a tornado or hurricane zone? Have you had any problems with them (binding, falling off tracks)?

That's the nice thing about the 12.5" thick ICF walls -- they are thick enough to contain the takeup box and mechanism of the rolling shutter, completely hiding the shutter from view until it is rolled down over the window.  Maybe these pictures will help explain how they were installed.




You have to plan for the installation of the rolling shutter when building the ICF forms.  The window bucks need to be high enough to accommodate the shutter takeup reel enclosure.  I opted for the interior crank to raise and lower the shutter.  A motorized shutter option is also available.

Here's an exterior view before the siding and trim were installed.  The aluminum shutter guides are embedded behind the exterior trim to make them unobtrusive.




This picture shows the finished exterior with the shutters part way down.




The rolling shutters provide complete control over the brutal sunlight entering the window later in the afternoon.   They also provide security, privacy, storm protection and reduced heat loss in the winter.  The windows stay cleaner, as well, during summer rains if the shutters are rolled down.  These shutters are well made and work reliably.  No regrets on incorporating them into the house design.

--Clark

That's the nice thing about the 12.5" thick ICF walls -- they are thick enough to contain the takeup box and mechanism of the rolling shutter, completely hiding the shutter from view until it is rolled down over the window.  Maybe these pictures will help explain how they were installed.




You have to plan for the installation of the rolling shutter when building the ICF forms.  The window bucks need to be high enough to accommodate the shutter takeup reel enclosure.  I opted for the interior crank to raise and lower the shutter.  A motorized shutter option is also available.


The rolling shutters provide complete control over the brutal sunlight entering the window later in the afternoon.   They also provide security, privacy, storm protection and reduced heat loss in the winter.  The windows stay cleaner, as well, during summer rains if the shutters are rolled down.  These shutters are well made and work reliably.  No regrets on incorporating them into the house design.

--Clark

THANKS for all the info!

With the design setup you have done, by placing the shutter assembly on the inside of the home, how much heat/cooling loss do you experience from that area? Being the shutter reel assembly occupies a space that would have been EPS & 6"+ of concrete. You can't really add cellulose up there, so it looks like a potential spot for a lot of energy loss.

What kind of ICF did you use? You mentioned that the walls are 12.5" thick. Are you including the thickness of the siding?

What shutter brand did you use?



 

Posted By Lbear on 03 Dec 2011 04:49 PM

THANKS for all the info! With the design setup you have done, by placing the shutter assembly on the inside of the home, how much heat/cooling loss do you experience from that area? Being the shutter reel assembly occupies a space that would have been EPS & 6"+ of concrete. You can't really add cellulose up there, so it looks like a potential spot for a lot of energy loss. What kind of ICF did you use? You mentioned that the walls are 12.5" thick. Are you including the thickness of the siding? What shutter brand did you use?

I was able to insulate the area above the window where the rolling shutter reel is located.  The rolling shutter box was 7" deep, so I was able to put 2" of rigid foam behind the interior access trim panel.  Keep in mind that the energy loss through the triple glass windows is substantial compared to the ICF walls (R3 vs R22), so the R14 of rigid foam insulation over the roll shutter box represents only a small additional heat loss.  That heat loss is more than compensated for by the lower heat loss at night with the window glass shielded from the wind by the insulated roll shutter.  Heat gain from sun in the summer is almost completely stopped when the shutter is down.  There are perforations in the couplings between the individual slats which allow some light to enter the room if the shutters are not allowed to fully mate when the shutter is deployed.

I used TF System vertical ICF, but my approach to installing rolling shutters can be used with any ICF product provided the overall thickness of the wall, including the EPS is sufficient.  My ICF walls on the main floor are 10.5" thick (5.5" of concrete with 2.5" of EPS on each side).  I mistakenly said 12.5" thick earlier, but that was the thickness of the foundation walls, not the above grade walls.  Interior and exterior finishing is not included in this wall thickness dimension.  I covered the ICF with 1/2" gypsum board on the inside and Hardie board lap siding on the outside.

The brand of roll shutters I purchased was Rollac Rolling Shutters.  They are made of extruded aluminum with a foam insulation core.

Posted By Clark on 03 Dec 2011 08:00 PM

I was able to insulate the area above the window where the rolling shutter reel is located.  The rolling shutter box was 7" deep, so I was able to put 2" of rigid foam behind the interior access trim panel.  Keep in mind that the energy loss through the triple glass windows is substantial compared to the ICF walls (R3 vs R22), so the R14 of rigid foam insulation over the roll shutter box represents only a small additional heat loss.  That heat loss is more than compensated for by the lower heat loss at night with the window glass shielded from the wind by the insulated roll shutter.  Heat gain from sun in the summer is almost completely stopped when the shutter is down.  There are perforations in the couplings between the individual slats which allow some light to enter the room if the shutters are not allowed to fully mate when the shutter is deployed.

I used TF System vertical ICF, but my approach to installing rolling shutters can be used with any ICF product provided the overall thickness of the wall, including the EPS is sufficient.  My ICF walls on the main floor are 10.5" thick (5.5" of concrete with 2.5" of EPS on each side).  I mistakenly said 12.5" thick earlier, but that was the thickness of the foundation walls, not the above grade walls.  Interior and exterior finishing is not included in this wall thickness dimension.  I covered the ICF with 1/2" gypsum board on the inside and Hardie board lap siding on the outside.

The brand of roll shutters I purchased was Rollac Rolling Shutters.  They are made of extruded aluminum with a foam insulation core.

So the shutter reel area that faces the exterior, what did you do to seal off that area from the exterior wall? It appears to be no OSB there, just the shutter box steel.

Do you get any air or water leaks from the shutter track areas or the reel area? How do you waterproof the shutter box area on the outside?

Is an access panel on the interior side mandatory or could one just drywall the shutter reel area?

If you have any more install pics, they would be appreciated.  THANKS!

Posted By Lbear on 04 Dec 2011 02:40 AM

Posted By Clark on 03 Dec 2011 08:00 PM

I was able to insulate the area above the window where the rolling shutter reel is located.  The rolling shutter box was 7" deep, so I was able to put 2" of rigid foam behind the interior access trim panel.  Keep in mind that the energy loss through the triple glass windows is substantial compared to the ICF walls (R3 vs R22), so the R14 of rigid foam insulation over the roll shutter box represents only a small additional heat loss.  That heat loss is more than compensated for by the lower heat loss at night with the window glass shielded from the wind by the insulated roll shutter.  Heat gain from sun in the summer is almost completely stopped when the shutter is down.  There are perforations in the couplings between the individual slats which allow some light to enter the room if the shutters are not allowed to fully mate when the shutter is deployed.

I used TF System vertical ICF, but my approach to installing rolling shutters can be used with any ICF product provided the overall thickness of the wall, including the EPS is sufficient.  My ICF walls on the main floor are 10.5" thick (5.5" of concrete with 2.5" of EPS on each side).  I mistakenly said 12.5" thick earlier, but that was the thickness of the foundation walls, not the above grade walls.  Interior and exterior finishing is not included in this wall thickness dimension.  I covered the ICF with 1/2" gypsum board on the inside and Hardie board lap siding on the outside.

The brand of roll shutters I purchased was Rollac Rolling Shutters.  They are made of extruded aluminum with a foam insulation core.

So the shutter reel area that faces the exterior, what did you do to seal off that area from the exterior wall? It appears to be no OSB there, just the shutter box steel.

Do you get any air or water leaks from the shutter track areas or the reel area? How do you waterproof the shutter box area on the outside?

Is an access panel on the interior side mandatory or could one just drywall the shutter reel area?

If you have any more install pics, they would be appreciated.  THANKS!

Yes, the rolling shutter space above the window is sealed off on the exterior with a piece of 1/2" plywood or OSB.  It is needed to provide a firm backing for the siding.  Here's a picture after the trim, but before the siding was put up.  It is flush with the ICF foam.  I sealed it against water leakage with window flashing tape.  Air circulates freely behind this panel via the slit through which the rolling shutter passes.  Note that I wrapped the ICF corners in sheet metal to which the corner trim boards are screwed.  This was cheaper than buying the special ICF corners meant for that purpose.  The covered porch walls were finished with acrylic stucco (Dryvit) applied directly to the ICF.


 


There should be a means provided to access the shutter reel mechanism in case in fails.  Access can be from inside or outside.  I found that placing the trim panel on the inside more asthetically pleasing than one on the outside.  It's a matter of personal taste.  Here's an interior picture of the rigid foam insulation placed behind the access panel.  It's two 1" layers of polyisocyanurate board tightly fitting into the framed space over the window.  The foam was covered with a framed 1/2" plywood panel part of which is shown over the left window below.  That presents my first idea for providing an access panel to the reel mechanism.  Later, I covered it up with a different panel that provided a more pleasing interior trim arrangement (see picture several posts back).




Here' an exterior close up of the rolling shutter where it emerges from the takeup reel and drops down into the guides that are installed behind the vinyl window casing trim.  The thick ICF walls, again, allow the window to be recessed so that this is possible.  When the shutter is fully retracted, it is not at all obvious that a rolling shutter is present.  So far, I have had no problems with insects (wasps) building nest in the reel space.





Installing the roll shutters in this way is more complicated and labor intensive, but I felt that the end result would be more pleasing architecturally. 

--Clark

Posted By Clark on 04 Dec 2011 11:29 AM

Installing the roll shutters in this way is more complicated and labor intensive, but I felt that the end result would be more pleasing architecturally. 

--Clark

I agree, your method of install is the better method to go by. Large shutter reel boxes on the outside of the home are IMHO, quite ugly. The inside boxes are better but still are not appealing. Hiding the shutter assembly like you did is the way to go. Not all my windows will have shutters, just the south facing ones and MAYBE the west facing ones. In the summer I want to be able to cut down on the solar gain.

You mentioned that you sealed the shutter box assembly from water intrusion with window flashing tape. Did you wrap the exposed OSB in that area with Tyvex?

My exterior finish is going to be stucco, so I would have to leave 1/2" - 1" of space after the OSB and the ICF EPS so that one can place some EPS in front of the OSB so that it will be flush with the EPS, then the entire wall would be stuccoed.

I also agree that an access panel needs to be there to access the shutter reel assembly. I would probably do likewise and wrap the the window bay area with wood trim all the way around, which will have to be done anyways because the ICF wall is so thick, it is more appealing when wood is present.

Posted By Lbear on 04 Dec 2011 04:10 PM

Posted By Clark on 04 Dec 2011 11:29 AM

Installing the roll shutters in this way is more complicated and labor intensive, but I felt that the end result would be more pleasing architecturally. 

--Clark

I agree, your method of install is the better method to go by. Large shutter reel boxes on the outside of the home are IMHO, quite ugly. The inside boxes are better but still are not appealing. Hiding the shutter assembly like you did is the way to go. Not all my windows will have shutters, just the south facing ones and MAYBE the west facing ones. In the summer I want to be able to cut down on the solar gain.

You mentioned that you sealed the shutter box assembly from water intrusion with window flashing tape. Did you wrap the exposed OSB in that area with Tyvex?

My exterior finish is going to be stucco, so I would have to leave 1/2" - 1" of space after the OSB and the ICF EPS so that one can place some EPS in front of the OSB so that it will be flush with the EPS, then the entire wall would be stuccoed.

I also agree that an access panel needs to be there to access the shutter reel assembly. I would probably do likewise and wrap the the window bay area with wood trim all the way around, which will have to be done anyways because the ICF wall is so thick, it is more appealing when wood is present.

Yes, when the siding was installed, I placed some felt paper over the plywood cover to divert any water that might be driven up behind the Hardie board siding.

I, too, only installed the shutters on four larger windows which are exposed to strong sun rays late in the afternoon.  I did recess all of my windows, though, for uniformity of appearance.

I'm glad I was able to give you some ideas and I hope your design works out well.  Be sure to let us know how you do and include a couple of photos.