Has anyone here done a 2nd story residential floor in QuadDeck/InsulDeck that had ICF walls stacked on top of the deck? How much live load can it hold?

The live load is going to be determined by the depth of the concrete web, the thickness of the concrete slab, the span and the tensile steel placed in the web.

You aren't going to get what is essentially a concrete wall out on the Insuldeck field without something pretty substantial directly below - another bearing wall or a BIG composite beam.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Mar 2012 09:38 PM
The live load is going to be determined by the depth of the concrete web, the thickness of the concrete slab, the span and the tensile steel placed in the web.

You aren't going to get what is essentially a concrete wall out on the Insuldeck field without something pretty substantial directly below - another bearing wall or a BIG composite beam.

Would a 22' x 12' deck area supported by concrete piers underneath be feasible? The 2nd story portion to the right would have 12' of interior space and then 10' of an outdoor deck. If this is an ICF wall sitting on top of the concrete InsulDeck area, supported by a concrete or steel piers, is it even feasible?

It can be done, but it is not reasonable in terms of cost. Making that second story portion out of ICF is not playing to the strengths of the ICF or the Insuldeck.

You could do it in Insuldeck with wood framing on top, but that would require large reinforced concrete beams and piers/footings below. There would be no value in doing it that way, either.

You need to make that overhanging portion with concrete/masonry piers and glulams or other engineered members to support the woodframe structure above, which is probably how it was originally designed.

I have actually done what your are describing, it was a lot of work. I ended up having to cut a trough (14" wide) in the insuldeck (9" product) the opposite direction of the 'beams' of the product, create a cage using many bottom and top bars, tied all together with stirrups, additional temporary support below and then pour.

It works, but is time consuming to built, when done, no visible beams just the posts below.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Mar 2012 11:11 PM
It can be done, but it is not reasonable in terms of cost. Making that second story portion out of ICF is not playing to the strengths of the ICF or the Insuldeck.

Why would it not play to the strengths of ICF or Insuldeck?

To do the 2nd story portion in wood just defeats the whole purpose of doing the rest of the home in ICF. What should I do? Scrap the whole thing? Disappointing...


I thought if it could be done in wood then it could just as "easily" be done in ICF.

What's under the Insuldeck part, space open to the outdoors, or garage? How about posting a larger clearer copy of the drawing above, as well as the West view.

Posted By dmaceld on 07 Mar 2012 01:23 AM
What's under the Insuldeck part, space open to the outdoors, or garage? How about posting a larger clearer copy of the drawing above, as well as the West view.

It's open porch space to the outdoors.


 

Why would it not play to the strengths of ICF or Insuldeck?

Because there is no point in perching a concrete wall up there. It does not make anything stronger and you can achieve the same R-value another way.

Alternatively, if it was so important to make it out of ICF, you could dispense with the open space below and just drop the supporting walls all the way down.

To do the 2nd story portion in wood just defeats the whole purpose of doing the rest of the home in ICF. What should I do? Scrap the whole thing? Disappointing...

If that is the case, then drop the walls all the way to the ground and make them out of ICF. What you have done is to take a design optimized for something else, probably conventional construction, and tried to force ICF onto it. We have discussed earlier how you can't expect to be able to do that.

I thought if it could be done in wood then it could just as "easily" be done in ICF.

I don't think that would be a true statement as regards building with ICF.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 07 Mar 2012 02:43 AM

Why would it not play to the strengths of ICF or Insuldeck?

Because there is no point in perching a concrete wall up there. It does not make anything stronger and you can achieve the same R-value another way.

Alternatively, if it was so important to make it out of ICF, you could dispense with the open space below and just drop the supporting walls all the way down.

To do the 2nd story portion in wood just defeats the whole purpose of doing the rest of the home in ICF. What should I do? Scrap the whole thing? Disappointing...

If that is the case, then drop the walls all the way to the ground and make them out of ICF. What you have done is to take a design optimized for something else, probably conventional construction, and tried to force ICF onto it. We have discussed earlier how you can't expect to be able to do that.

I thought if it could be done in wood then it could just as "easily" be done in ICF.

I don't think that would be a true statement as regards building with ICF.

The projections are architectural themes and tie into the whole design of the home. This is where architects and builders never see eye to eye. I don't want to get into the whole architectural debate but suffice it to say that dropping the support wall all the way down, one might as well start with a new design.

My goal in ICF is not about R-Value. If I was looking for best bang for buck in regards to R-Value, I would build in wood frame and spray foam.

I am not saying that you said the comment but it has been stated before by others. That one can take any wood frame designed home and it can be translated into ICF. Apparently wood designed homes have a stronger advantage in design capability.

one might as well start with a new design.

Or a modification thereof. I already pointed out that you could still do it in ICF, just with something else on the portion in question. That is how a "hybrid" comes about. This designer either did not design with ICF in mind or, if they claim they did, they didn't know anything about it.

That one can take any wood frame designed home and it can be translated into ICF

And maybe it can be, but things would have to be gained and lost in the "translation".

Apparently wood designed homes have a stronger advantage in design capability.

Maybe in the big picture they do, but the fact still remains that ICF has it's own advantages and disadvantages, which your particular design ignores.

I am currently doing a three story home where the 2nd floor steps in from the main walls and therefore has no concrete support below these walls. I have worked with my engineer to use large steel beams buried in the trusses which allow me to continue with the ICF walls on the 2nd floor. We located columns in walls that are needed in various rooms but we do have fairly large spans with the steel and satisfy the customer with the use of ICF on the 2nd floor.

Roughly speaking, the same thing can be accomplished with concrete and steel composites. The difference would be that with a steel beam (a single structural member), you would need crane access and with the composite it could be built up with labor by forming, placing steel rebar and pouring concrete.

Did you consider using Insuldeck or similar on this build?

lbear
can you email/mail me drawings of what you posted here?
looks like your spans below the sliders are small enough to be handled by the deck/internal flush or drop down-beam below.
on the other wall (with the angle in it) the whole wall can be designed as an upturned beam/plate, with the floor hanging from it.
as long as the wall ends have column or wall support lining up below, it should not be a problem.
time to consult with an experienced icf/concrete pe...
we can help you there with names in most states, if you need.
[email protected]
[email protected]

I did not consider the insuldeck, we had some other needs that had to be met and was able to accomplish those needs with the steel columns and beams. But i will look into it for future projects. I am in the process of looking into a concrete roof structure for this house, seems to make sense given that all of the walls are concrete.

I have never been too interested in the concrete roof thing, but if I lived in a hurricane zone, I think I would consider it and I would definitely use Insuldeck as I have found it to be a nice product.

After deeper research, it appears that it is very feasible to do those areas with InsulDeck. I appreciate the input...

How do you plan to isolate the outdoor slab from the indoor slab?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 07 Mar 2012 11:32 PM
How do you plan to isolate the outdoor slab from the indoor slab?

There is no outdoor slab, the slab area would be indoor only. I am not following you. If you mean insulating the slab that faces to the exterior, I can use EPS foam.

What about the balcony/deck? That appears to be outdoors.