Hi all, we're trying to build a creamery to make cheese here on our small farm. Maybe looking at something like 20 x 36, roughly divided in half, for the milking parlor and milkhouse on one side, and creamery/make-room on the other. Then possibly something in the 20x20 range for an aging space for cheese. Before we bought this place, we had been considering trying to build an ICF home. Now wondering if ICF makes the most sense for the creamery.

For one thing, we're in northern NY, where frost depth is around 48". Second, the basic requirements of the milking parlor, milkhouse, and creamery are that it has light-colored washable walls and concrete floors with floor drain. The walls could potentially be painted or limewashed concrete. Finally, a cheese "cave" is a humid space ranging in temperature from 50 to 55 degrees F. Similarly requires washable walls.

1. I'm thinking that ICF probably doesn't make the most sense for the aging space, since it isn't conditioned to living temperatures. The most efficient place to put this is right in the ground, where it can be close to too cooled just by soil temperatures. Seems like ICF walls would actually just inhibit this. Plus, it would actually require an additional step of finishing (like putting FRP panels up), where bare or limewashed concrete would do. It's seeming like a more traditional poured basement, insulated on the top and exterior, would be the more economical route but perfectly suited for the needs here. (Or maybe a monolithic dome?)

2. I'm wondering, though, whether the aging room should be a separate construction, or if we should instead put a full basement under the creamery and use that for a cave? This would mean a staircase, and probably a dumb waiter (or a full-out elevator perhaps), taking up floor space. As the floor for the creamery and milking areas would be concrete, it would also mean a strong structural and well-insulated floor - so here the ICF decking would make sense. Not sure how this extra space and extra flooring requirements would compare with instead building out horizontally.

3. Regardless of where the aging room is, should the creamery itself be ICF? Again, washed concrete might be enough for the inside walls. Plumbing and electric would have to be on the surface and in conduit. But ICF with FRP panels would make the space more useable for another purpose in the future if needed (e.g. licensed commercial kitchen). So I'm thinking ICF here?

4. What's typically done for frost walls/frost footings? Do you start with ICF all the way from the footing? Or can you, say, pour 8" (or 10") concrete stem walls on the footings, then lay 6" ICF forms when starting the actual walls? Seems like avoiding the costs of the forms and insulation where it isn't needed would be more economical? (Since I'd like to connect a below-grade aging space with the creamery, we probably can't do a FPSF for the creamery, so frost walls seems in order.)

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Polycrete Big Block was used for a cheese factory in Quebec 2 yrs ago. Message me offline and I will put you in touch with the team that put it all together. There are even some pics on the PolycreteUSA.com website.

Similar to Bruce's post, there is a LEED platinum dairy built with ICF in Ontario as well with curing caves, retail store etc. http://www.fifthtown.ca/artisan_cheese/initiatives/our_platinum_leed_facility/ Called Fifth Town Cheese. Good luck with your project!!!

Nice to see a fellow farmer on site.

I recommend all ICF. You just can't go wrong there, and you aren't doing enough wall square footage to have ICF be really cost restrictive, in my opinion.

Long term versatility is key, and FRP on ICF will allow, as you have mentioned, best versatility in the future. I would most recommend putting the whole building into a hill, which adds value on heating and cooling, exterior cladding costs and labor, and saves money on frost walls on 3 sides of the building. It also allows great drainage for washing, and a basement you have to rely on pumps?
Interior walls you can pour with 4 inch ICF if you are careful to plan ahead for consistent concrete consolidation. Then in the future you can use different rooms for say barley sprouting, or a dorm for woofers, or onion storage, or retail store etc. etc.
Some of the applications you are suggesting will require humidity control and or frequent washing, and to save on water and remain within health codes, FRP is king.

I was up in Essex last winter for a couple weeks. Nice country, a lot of vitality in the local food industry there....

Best,
Kevin

To follow up (with a good story): About 5 years ago, Fromagerie Boivin, a 73 year old family business in Quebec built a Polycrete ICF addition onto their facility for whey processing. Last December, the original wood structure was destroyed in a spectacular fire. This past summer, they re-built and now have en entire Polycrete ICF facility. Here's a link http://www.fromagerieboivin.com

Thanks for all the thoughts. We were pretty set on ICF for the bulk of the structure, just not sure if bare concrete made the most sense for the aging room. Maybe just having the below grade floor uninsulated would make sense, for passive cooling? I think for more of the year than not, the soil below would be as cool or cooler than that needed for the cave aging temp. Will check on that.
Where we think, from a functionality standpoint, it makes sense to build, isn't quite into a hill - it's level ground - but there is a bank right behind it, that I think we could backfill afterwards to further cover/bury the cool/aging space. There a decent slope starting 40 or 50 feet in front of the building, to allow drainage.
We're about 40 miles northwest of Essex!

milkdemcows, might want to consider a SIP that already has a USDA approved finish?

Posted By milkdemcows on 22 Dec 2012 04:14 PM
Thanks for all the thoughts. We were pretty set on ICF for the bulk of the structure, just not sure if bare concrete made the most sense for the aging room. Maybe just having the below grade floor uninsulated would make sense, for passive cooling? I think for more of the year than not, the soil below would be as cool or cooler than that needed for the cave aging temp. Will check on that.
Where we think, from a functionality standpoint, it makes sense to build, isn't quite into a hill - it's level ground - but there is a bank right behind it, that I think we could backfill afterwards to further cover/bury the cool/aging space. There a decent slope starting 40 or 50 feet in front of the building, to allow drainage.
We're about 40 miles northwest of Essex!

How cool does the aging room need to be, below 40°? You may want to look at adding additional foam to the outside to minimize the cooling requirements as much as reasonable. Be sure to work with an HVAC contractor who uses a good software program to do the heating/cooling calculations. Whatever you do, do not listen to any HVAC person who does "rule of thumb" designs.

A system worth looking at for this application is the Daikin VRV III Heat Recovery heat pump system. It would allow you to cool the aging room and use the heat pulled from there to help heat the other parts of the creamery. In other words, when you have a need for heating and cooling at the same time in separate parts of the complex the system will move the heat from the cooled area to the heated area. Saves on operating cost.

I'd be a bit skeptical that you would get enough cooling by passive means through the floor slab. The ground in most parts of the country is on the order of 50 to 55°, which I suspect isn't cool enough for what you need. The main reason for the suggestions of building in the ground is that the temperature outside the wall remains fairly constant all year long, warmer than the atmosphere in the winter and cooler in the summer. This works to reduce the heating/cooling load all year. But you can achieve the same result with a thicker layer of insulation. In your case it will come down to which is the more economical and practical, banking a lot of dirt around the building or adding more insulation to the wall. Think in terms of the ridiculous, 5 feet of foam on all the walls! In that case you would have very little heat transfer through the wall and a very low heating cooling cost. But the additional cost of insulation may pay for 20 years of heating/cooling energy!

As you've undoubtedly already figured out, there is no pat easy answer for what you want to do. But there are real and practical answers. You just have to keep working at it until you find the one that suits you best.

Posted By dmaceld on 22 Dec 2012 08:06 PM

I'd be a bit skeptical that you would get enough cooling by passive means through the floor slab. The ground in most parts of the country is on the order of 50 to 55°, which I suspect isn't cool enough for what you need. The main reason for the suggestions of building in the ground is that the temperature outside the wall remains fairly constant all year long, warmer than the atmosphere in the winter and cooler in the summer. This works to reduce the heating/cooling load all year. But you can achieve the same result with a thicker layer of insulation. In your case it will come down to which is the more economical and practical, banking a lot of dirt around the building or adding more insulation to the wall. Think in terms of the ridiculous, 5 feet of foam on all the walls! In that case you would have very little heat transfer through the wall and a very low heating cooling cost. But the additional cost of insulation may pay for 20 years of heating/cooling energy!

Actually, 50 to 55 degrees is precisely the temperature that most cheeses are aged at!

1. As I understand your project, ICF might be good for the aging space if you build it as a below ground basement because the foam insulation should help moderate the more active temperature changes in the upper few feet of soil.  You would NOT insulate the floor in order to take advantage of the cooling found there.  If you needed more cooling after a heat loss evaluation, you could strip foam from the walls starting at the bottom.  You will probably need to have insulated concrete floors over the basement.

2. There would be cooling lost out the dumbwaiter shaft.  You would have to make it both airtight and have a well-insulated receiving cabinet at the top.

4. I can't imagine the extra expense of setting forms and stripping them with an entirely different crew would be worth it.  For only a few feet of height, it would be best just to go with ICF from the footings.

I would do this project with all ICF as the creamery could probably benefit from the the ICF like any other above ground structure in NY

I'd sure think about building out horizontally, as you have mentioned, instead of a basement. By the time you do suspended concrete floor, properly waterproofed with good drainage for the rooms above, and still lose the sq. footage for landings, dumbwaiters, and stairwell space, also basement excavation and backfill cost, you could probably justify the added cost for some more trusses and roofing expenses.
Maybe you could bank barn the back of the structure and allow a walk in small office/cabin in thte truss space? I think if the ICF cheese cave was built back into the "hill" or covered completely, it will come to a static 55 degrees and stay there, if you have no equipment running in it. Though a dehumidifier if neccessary will heat up the room.... A simple ICF box back into the hill with concrete lid insulation and waterproofing would do it. Keep the width of the cave at 10 ft. and you could do a decent concrete lid with rebar only.....

Sounds like your grading may allow you to have a walk through parlor on the side of the building, with a holding pen outside, to allow the cows come in and to be elevated, and separated from the equipment? Or I'd be interested in seeing how you are configuring your millking parlor and milk room in a 10 by 18 space. Because we are looking at doing the same, as Wyoming just legalized raw milk cow shares. We have an ICF shop and would like to integrate the same as you are talking about doing...

Do you have a website?
Kevin
www.fortcauseway.com

oh, And I know of a dairy in CO got shut down as they didnt' have fire separation from milking parlour to processing rooms, so don't know if upstate NY is tough on you there or not, but may want to take into consideration.

Thanks again for the replies, irnivek and ICFHybrid. I didn't really think a basement made the most sense in this situation, so thanks for that advice.
Kevin, when you say doing a "concrete lid with rebar only," what is that getting compared to? Something like concrete with I-beams?
We do have a farm website, wovenmeadows.com. Not much to speak of there on the dairy yet though!

If refrigeration is what you need then ICF is bar far the best way to go. subterranean basements ICF will beet CMU hands down. we used ICF just recently for a Time Warner server building which they need extreme climate control for the computer systems and underestimating the insulation factory in the ICF walls they over budgeted all their air units. ICF is also being currently sought out through the Wine industry for the grape fermentation process and such. Movie theaters, retirement housing and fire houses as well are being estimated in ICF because the way they're run, trying to keep a constant refrigeration. The ICF will save you in energy and sustainability in the long run all the way. The bonus is the speed of productivity, labor cost and waste management on the job. A good and qualified installer can put up a project in half the time of CMU, sometimes even less dependent on the engineers specifications.

Best regards,
Forming Solutions Inc.
www.forminggreen.com

I think you do full ICF basement with lite deck/insuldeck above then main structure.
With respect to cleanliness I would use Permacrete or Gigacrete (little more expensive) they are both impact resistant, fire rated and you can just power wash your walls and floors.
We use many different forms Logix, ARXX, reward (not much) but for a fast strong build you might want to consider Bruce's option of the Big Block from Polycrete if you don't have too many windows and have long straight walls like you say.
Where in NY are you? Our hunting camp is in Middleburgh NY near Cobbleskill and our neighbour is a dairy farmer.
I'm based out of Sag Harbor NY at the end of Long Island so not close enough to help you out on your project but hopefully able to give you some sound advice.
Good Luck
Jay

If USDA is the regulatory agency you may want to consult with them before you build something unacceptable. I can't help thinking wherever food/processing is involved your walls will need USDA approved?

Permacrete is a sealed stucco and USDA approved www.permacrete.com

Posted By HamptonsICF on 03 Jan 2013 06:53 AM
Permacrete is a sealed stucco and USDA approved www.permacrete.com

I don't see that reference on their web site?

Chris do you have Google theres 20 dif refs, I know it is as used it in hotel restaurant kitchens.

Posted By HamptonsICF on 03 Jan 2013 05:19 PM
Chris do you have Google theres 20 dif refs, I know it is as used it in hotel restaurant kitchens.

HamptonsICF, yes if I google permacrete/USDA I get many references,
If I google cmkavala/USDA , I also get many references, it does not mean I am USDA approved?
If they had USDA approvals , it seems like it would be pretty important to list on their web site?