I have used both the Plus Series Forms (this has up to 6" of additional EPS laminated to one side of the form) and the Plus Series Inserts (foam billets are inserts into the interior of the form - extra work, but this keep your fastening strips closer to the surface of the form in case mechanical fastening is required). Both product perform well. Obviously a little more labour required vs. regular Nudura blocks, but no complaints with finished product.

Just a correction on your post - it is the Nudura plus series that has the extra foam (up to 6"). Nudura One Series is the one-sided form. There is no Nudura 2 series as far as I am aware.

I looked into the same thing. A few interesting points:

- billet inserts leave voids where the webs are. During the pour, these voids are filled with concrete. This has an effect on R-value.
- extra external foam versions require spray foam to seal the areas on top/bottom as they may/may-not fit perfectly and air seal completely. There are no dimples there.
- cladding attachment is a challenge. The nailing strip is still in the 2-5/8" portion of the foam. Wire ties can be poked through for brick attachment, long screws possible.

Love the idea of the external foam version, but better sealing and attachment is needed.
Not enamored with the billet inserts.

If anyone could share photos/tips, that would be great!

Hope this helps!

CB.

Posted By cbryndal on 24 Aug 2016 11:52 AM
I looked into the same thing. A few interesting points:

- extra external foam versions require spray foam to seal the areas on top/bottom as they may/may-not fit perfectly and air seal completely. There are no dimples there.
- cladding attachment is a challenge. The nailing strip is still in the 2-5/8" portion of the foam. Wire ties can be poked through for brick attachment, long screws possible.

Love the idea of the external foam version, but better sealing and attachment is needed.
Not enamored with the billet inserts.

If anyone could share photos/tips, that would be great!

Hope this helps!

CB.

So the Plus Series doesn't seal well when stacking the forms?

I can see the need for a 2" longer screw for the Plus Two forms since the attachments are buried in 2" of more foam. Do you see a problem with veneer stone being 30" tall from the grade? One still uses a metal lathe but the screws would need to anchor further down into the form.

Yes, the laminate panels have no attachment mechanism between the extra material between the courses. Flat meets flat. A builder who has used them explained in detail this requires sealing, presumably with foam. I looked into the Plus forms with the 6" additional foam laminate on the outside. This would make the outside panel 8-5/8" thick overall, a 6" concrete core, and another 2-5/8" inside panel. However, the nailing strip is still located in the same place on both panels, as if the laminated outside foam was never there. It would be nice if they'd re-design the outside nailing strip so it was just beneath the outside of the foam exterior, just as the standard forms are. That would alleviate the need for long screws, wire ties, etc.. Of course, stucco works, and brick-ties (wire ties) could be placed with great labor. Seems like a simple re-design, perhaps a more challenging set of tooling for a more limited production product. The connection between the laminate additions to the outside would benefit from a single strip of interlocking foam knobs. That could more or less seal it up. The suggestion was made to me to simply place Nudura retrofit boards on the exterior horizontally, but my concern is they would not seal as completely as the laminated Plus blocks. Just offering some thoughts. I've built with standard Nudura forms and love them. Will do it again! :-)

A much easier and less expensive way to do this is by using a product like Lite Form's knock down system and order foam made to whatever thickness you like. It's what I do. Just installed one with 2" 2lb density outside with 4" 2lb density on the inside. I have one 6" outside, 2" inside on the drawing board. Takes all the extra nonsense out of the build. Also a product like Quad Lock makes sense. In the verticals you have Hobbs and TF. Everyone else is taking a standard form and adding to it. Extra cost is the result

Polycrete makes a full size (16 sqft) insert. It can be any thickness from 1" to 18" in 1/8" increments. You can see a video clip here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152295685945590&set=vb.246132040589&type=2&theater

Does anyone have a pic or link to a GOOD pic of the Plus One/Plus Two forms?

http://www.nudura.com/docs/default-source/brochures/plus-series-information-sheet.pdf?sfvrsn=6

Posted By cbryndal on 25 Aug 2016 01:52 AM
Yes, the laminate panels have no attachment mechanism between the extra material between the courses. Flat meets flat. A builder who has used them explained in detail this requires sealing, presumably with foam.

I am having a hard time understanding WHY the forms are not sealing like the standard forms. Both the Plus series and standard series uses dove tails and locking clips on the forms. Once the forms lock, they lock, even with the added foam, it's sitting flush and then the dove tails interlocked and the plastic locking clips bring the forms tight.

Where is the supposed "extra sealing" being required at?

The Nudura Plus form has the locking surface on only the interior 2.5" edge. The balance of the form butts the course below. The dirty little secret in the icf business is that EPS shrinks. Blocks fresh from the factory will get smaller when aged. When I dealt with BB they put a tag on fresh blocks that let you know that they wouldn't mesh with old blocks. I have some 1990 icfs that are 47.5" by 15.75".

Smartwall, There are two main reasons why Polycrete blocks don't "shrink" after they are shipped:
1) Steel wire mesh embedded in the EPS panels reduces the ability of the EPS panel to change size -- steel doesn't shrink
2) they are manufactured 1/8" larger and cured for a minimum of 21 days before shipping.

Posted By cbryndal on 24 Aug 2016 11:52 AM
I looked into the same thing. A few interesting points:

- billet inserts leave voids where the webs are. During the pour, these voids are filled with concrete. This has an effect on R-value.
- extra external foam versions require spray foam to seal the areas on top/bottom as they may/may-not fit perfectly and air seal completely. There are no dimples there.
- cladding attachment is a challenge. The nailing strip is still in the 2-5/8" portion of the foam. Wire ties can be poked through for brick attachment, long screws possible.

Love the idea of the external foam version, but better sealing and attachment is needed.
Not enamored with the billet inserts.

If anyone could share photos/tips, that would be great!

Hope this helps!

CB.

Just to clarify a few things with the Plus Series Form: The additional foam is laminated to a standard block at the factory. It is not a formed unit, so placing the webs closer to the exterior is not possible. The Plus Forms (not inserts) are designed to be used when synthetic stucco is applied (directly to foam) or below grade (WP membrane applied and buried). If you want a drainage plane, request that the additional layer of EPS is cut with a specific profile prior to being laminated to the block. Since a normal Nudura block is still part of the Plus Form, you still have the same interlock as a standard form, except the extra EPS is flat. If the plant does not laminate the extra layer perfectly, that is where some foaming of gaps (or rasping) is needed to ensure a continuous seal. In my experience this is minimal. The Plus Series Inserts keep the fastening strips at the surface if you want additional insulation, but require the mechanical fastening strips to be near the surface. The small gap between each one may fill with some concrete, but the flow of the concrete would be hindered by the webs, which a good portion of this gap. This would have a small effect on nominal R-value, but not sure if it would have any measurable effect on thermal performance. You could seal these seams with a bead of spray foam as you build if you want to get very picky (which most people do when shooting for this level of insulation).

Bruce, with lap seams the shrinkage wouldn't matter anyway would it. As long as the forms are all the same size. ICFBdr so the forms are a laminated extra foam placed on the standard form? I'm back to my original statement that the knock downs are a better and cheaper way to increase r-value.

Smartwall, it's a 2' x 8' insert with slots cut to accommodate the cross ties. Once it drops into place, a metal clip snaps in every 30 inches to hold it there. No glue or screws required. Install time is 1 man minute for every 16 sqft. Fastening strip stays 1.25" from the outer surface and a score on the outside of the block shows where it is.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152295685945590&set=vb.246132040589&type=2&theater

Posted By ICFBdr on 26 Aug 2016 10:54 AM

Just to clarify a few things with the Plus Series Form: The additional foam is laminated to a standard block at the factory. It is not a formed unit, so placing the webs closer to the exterior is not possible.

Is it possible for the laminated foam to "detach" itself from the form? This would not be good as it would cause exterior wall issues (stucco cracking, etc)

Laminating is gluing. Don't know of any glue that last forever . This is turning into a circular firing squad. You want thicker foam use a knock down with thicker foam. Cost less, less pieces to play with. This isn't complicated unless you make it complicated.

It is laminated with an EPS adhesive, as well as screws with plastic washers. I haven't tried to pull the extra layer off the form, but my guess is you would destroy the form prior to detaching the extra EPS. I would have zero concern of this product coming apart. One thing I do like about the extra layer is the ability to order it with vertical channels on the interior and/or exterior. By placing them on the interior face (ie, against the standard panel below), you are creating a drainage plane for any moisture that penetrates the stucco. Not able to accomplish this with a solid knock-down form.

Another option we used prior to Nudura's plus line of products is a standard panel with Ceiling Technology/RetroFit panels attached after. 4'x8' sheets are 2.5" or 3.5" thick with wooden strips molded into the sheets. They attached relatively quickly due to size and provide continuous insulation and attachment points for finish.

There are lots of options to increase your insulation - just be sure you are choosing the correct product to suit your application. For instance, if you need to mechanically fasten interior or exterior finish, be sure ties are close to surface. If you have a tall wall, a site that doesn't allow erection of scaffold, etc., use a product that has the extra EPS within the ICF itself, rather than attaching a product after. If you want to go off-grid in an extreme climate, make sure the product can reach R-value needed (we have gone up to nominal R60 with Nudura inserts). Just a couple examples...each project is unique so plan accordingly.

It is laminated with an EPS adhesive, as well as screws with plastic washers. I haven't tried to pull the extra layer off the form, but my guess is you would destroy the form prior to detaching the extra EPS. I would have zero concern of this product coming apart. One thing I do like about the extra layer is the ability to order it with vertical channels on the interior and/or exterior. By placing them on the interior face (ie, against the standard panel below), you are creating a drainage plane for any moisture that penetrates the stucco. Not able to accomplish this with a solid knock-down form.

Another option we used prior to Nudura's plus line of products is a standard panel with Ceiling Technology/RetroFit panels attached after. 4'x8' sheets are 2.5" or 3.5" thick with wooden strips molded into the sheets. They attached relatively quickly due to size and provide continuous insulation and attachment points for finish.

There are lots of options to increase your insulation - just be sure you are choosing the correct product to suit your application. For instance, if you need to mechanically fasten interior or exterior finish, be sure ties are close to surface. If you have a tall wall, a site that doesn't allow erection of scaffold, etc., use a product that has the extra EPS within the ICF itself, rather than attaching a product after. If you want to go off-grid in an extreme climate, make sure the product can reach R-value needed (we have gone up to nominal R60 with Nudura inserts). Just a couple examples...each project is unique so plan accordingly.

sorry....double clicked