Hello GBT members, slowly learning Ironworker here. I've been really interested in the ICF building procedure and love the benefits. My question comes from my experience in my trade. Would it be feasible/reasonable to use steel beams/trusses in these structures? My reasoning is to have larger clear spans. I know in typical concrete building steel weld plates with nelson studs attached to them are commonly used and to me I like it more than wood. Not trying to sound like a know it all or anything just looking for opinions. Hoping to one day get my CSL in massachusetts and build some homes, thanks.

We use steel beams quit regularly, 2 options, create a pocket and set a plate to receive the beam at a later date (after the pour) or embed prior to pour (cast in place) with some form of anchor attachment for the concrete to grab onto. Having cast in place requires some shoring to hold prior to the placement of concrete so many just prefer to set in place after

We use steel beams quite regularly, 2 options, create a pocket and set a plate to receive the beam at a later date (after the pour) or embed prior to pour (cast in place) with some form of anchor attachment for the concrete to grab onto. Having cast in place requires some shoring to hold prior to the placement of concrete so many just prefer to set in place after

Thanks for the response Chris, that's kinda what I thought too but wasn't sure, cast in place is what I'm use to seeing. What about using steel trusses for the floor though, could a wood floor still be used or would composite decking be my only option if I went that route. I figure steel joists would be set on the top of floor poor either attached by weld on a plate or embedded bolts? Do you think this is practical if you have access to the steel at a decent price? EDIT: Also if beams are exposed on the interior of the structure is fireproofing required or is that reserved for commercial buildings?

Tradeready by Clark Dietrich and iSpan are two steel floor systems. The advantage is that the joist are cast in place with no separate hangers. The iSpan uses a end connector that's attaches to the end of the joist that's buried in the wall. If I built again it's the way I would go depending on shipping. If you look around there are others that would work.

Ebmedding joists in ICF is feasible, I've done it plenty of times with both steel and I joists (Wrap the ends with plastic/BlueSkin if using wood to prevent decay), note you still need some form of edge nailing against the foam to complete the diaphragm of the floor sheeting, on steel joists this could be a simple 2" wide 20g steel strap attached to the joists to allow you to nail thru the plywood into the strap. ET&F makes a 400psi compressor and nail gun for nailing sheeting into joists unto 12g in thickness

Personally after doing this for 20 years, it's easier to pour the wall, hang a ledger (PSL/LVL for wood, Steel Track for Steel Joists) and set the joists after the pour, all ICF blocks can have some form of compression and setting your joist prior to the pour and encapsulating them can throw your floor off and if you place a 2x below the joists and a few legs down to the footing or floor below and get compression, the wall can start to go out of plumb or the top block with twist creating another hassle to deal with, however all that being said, it sure is nice to walk around on a subfloor pouring your walls instead of the scaffolding planks

Setting the red iron steel beams embedded prior to pour I don't have an issue with

As for fire rating, it all depends on the type of structure you are building and what local codes call for, this is personal, in '03 my wood frame house caught fire and burnt to the ground, literally, I'm a big supporter of full fire rating in any structure, including partitioning off the roof trusses into smaller roofs within one main roof...I've watched my house become engulfed in under 20 minutes, my house was 80' long and once in the attic the fire ran, the basement ceiling was also strapped down with 1x under the joists, this too allowed the fire to run from one end to the other in minutes, so no strapping basement ceilings either, and if your planning TJI's I'd suggest drywall on ons side of the joist, maybe every 6-7 joists

Rant over hahaha

Could use a form with no compression problems.

Wow you guys, a lot of feedback for sure! Thanks a ton!

I have completed two residential floors consisting of open web bar joists, bearing plate imbeds, corrugated steel decking, and an angle iron pour stop around the perimeter. The joist sizing and spacing was determined by an engineer.

All the bearing plates (3/8"x6" with studs) and angle irons were precut and painted by the steel provider. The hard part is how to tie the second story wall to the wall beneath the bearing plate. The first time I drilled holes through the bearing plates after they were set then drilled and epoxied dowels into the wall below. I do not recommend this route. The second time I got smart and predrilled the holes in the bearing plate to accept the vertical wall rebar extensions and they were placed immediately after the bearing plate. I believe these were 5/8" holes to accept #4 rebars. You could also just burn some holes on site if that is more convenient. I would use some cold galvanize spray paint to touch them up if going that route. Some preplanning will be important so no vertical reinforcement bars conflict with joist spacing.

Some foam pieces was ripped down to fill out the hollow ends of the bar joist angle steel and I think I taped some sill seal foam over the entire ends before continuing to set the upper wall. Of course there will still be some weld plates that must be attached directly to the concrete wall (foam cut away) at the very bottom of the joists to prevent them from twisting under load. But, these are much easier to locate and attach with anchor bolts after the joists are placed.

The first project had a 4" floor thickness with heat tubing so the second story wall was poured before the floor. The braces were attached to the angle iron pour stop and to the joists with self drilling TEK screws. Sometimes a piece of 3/4 plywood was necessary to span two joists to properly locate and fasten the diagonal part of the wall brace.

The second project had a 3" thick floor with no heat tubing. That floor was poured before the second story. The wall braces were fastened with "Tapcons" at the base of the wall, and a 2x6 also fastened to the concrete floor also with "Tapcons". The diagonal bracing was fastened to it with short TEK screws. This floor doesn't have any other finish, but one would have to look pretty hard to see where the fastener holes were drilled.

To me, a big advantage of using the steel bar joists and metal decking was that there wasn't a huge rush to get the structure under roof to protect wood framing elements or subfloors. Especially for those like me who work slowly without a lot of help and just enjoy the process!

They all compress somewhat, even those who's webs are top to bottom claiming no compression. not much, but still compress

I have three that don't. Hobbs, TF and IntegraSpec