SIPS & Radiant Heat
Last Post 05 Jan 2010 02:48 PM by cmkavala. 16 Replies.
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rlt1037User is Offline
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16 Dec 2009 10:34 AM
Hello,
I am building a 2000 sf SIP home with radiant heat in a slab. My builder has not done SIPs before and two issues are on my mind.

1/ What training is required for installation? The local SIP manufacturer may be available.
2/ He believes a whole house fan for ventilation is sufficient. I hear that an air-makeup unit is required. Can someone give me an example of a unit that would be recommended?
Bob IUser is Offline
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16 Dec 2009 01:14 PM
rlt
First, buy and read Joe Lstiburek's book "Builders Guide to SIPS", or better, buy two copies & have your builder read one. Its is a good product but you need to understand the limitations and you will need to know what to look for when the panels are installed. You will NEED an HRV (or ERV, depending on location) for ventilation - it is not an option, but part of the SIPS "package". Don't forget to insulate and thermally isolate your radiant slab.
Bob Irving
RH Irving Homebuilders
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
retired1User is Offline
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16 Dec 2009 01:54 PM

It's great that you are here asking questions.

Ditto what Bob I said above.

A whole house fan will not do what you need to do to provide air quality and more importantly indoor Humidity control.
Talk to a HVAC contractor who is experienced with Sip built homes for the correct system. I don't think your builder has a clue.
Just my 2 cents, good luck.
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16 Dec 2009 02:07 PM
A whole-house fan would be a TERRIBLE way to to in Renton (which has a real heating season, eh?) HRVs are much lower power/flow, and can be set with timer or humidistat contol to duty-cycle as needed. Really creative approaches using exhaust-only BATHROOM fans have been used with success, but there is a design process to it, and guaranteeing ventilation air to every place that needs it is much easier with a mini-duct system on an HRV, which is fairly straightforaward. Integrating ventilation air and hot air heating systems (or central AC systems) can sometimes be done reasonably.

But under no circumstances should you try to do it with a whole-house fan. (And if you design the building envelope reasonably for low summer time solar gain, you'll never need/want a whole house fan for cooling in Renton either- it's just not that much of a cooling season, and you'll get better annual efficiency using a small window AC unit than the large hole in the insulation & air-leak that most whole house fans end up being.)
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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17 Dec 2009 02:32 AM
Posted By rlt1037 on 12/16/2009 10:34 AM
Hello,
I am building a 2000 sf SIP home with radiant heat in a slab. My builder has not done SIPs before and two issues are on my mind.

1/ What training is required for installation? The local SIP manufacturer may be available.
2/ He believes a whole house fan for ventilation is sufficient. I hear that an air-makeup unit is required. Can someone give me an example of a unit that would be recommended?
rlt1037;

While SIP installs are faster and easier, there is a learning curve! I would still recommend a supply and install quote from an experienced crew, there is training available from schools, we offer on site training as well, but you don't really want a contractor learning on your dime.
Recommending the whole house fan is lack of experience showing thru, the make up air may be require and can be accomplished with an HRV, ERV or as simple as 4" dia duct, all depends on where your build is? and what your other job specs are? It should be designed by a HVAC professional
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
B_EdwardsUser is Offline
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30 Dec 2009 06:49 PM
Where can I find this book?
Posted By Bob I on 12/16/2009 1:14 PM
rlt
First, buy and read Joe Lstiburek's book "Builders Guide to SIPS", or better, buy two copies & have your builder read one.
Bob IUser is Offline
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30 Dec 2009 07:39 PM
here
http://www.buildingsciencepress.com/Builders-Guide-to-Structural-Insulated-Panels-SIPs-for-all-Climates-P5.aspx
http://www.buildingsciencepress.com/Builders-Guides-C1.aspx

or amazon
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_0_31?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=builders+guide+to+cold+climates&sprefix=builders+guide+to+cold+climates
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
panelwrightUser is Offline
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31 Dec 2009 02:39 PM
Bob,
You might want to read chapter 11 again before suggesting that an HRV or ERV strategy is the only way to go with a tight (SIP) envelope.
In fact, Building Science Corp has provided a great deal of research on many acceptable strategies for proper ventilation. They are also notorious for pointing out that the proper strategy is also climate dependent.
It is unfortunate that many (including SIP manufacturers) are too quick to offer or even demand the HRV/ERV strategy as the only solution.
The majority of the country is perfectly well served by Joe's strategy outlined in fig. 11.11
This would also be a strategy that installs for a fraction of the cost and has little to no additional maintenance when compared to an HRV or ERV.

Note to all: The answer to your question often depends on where you're building. Do yourself a favor and provide your build location when asking a question.

Al
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Bob IUser is Offline
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31 Dec 2009 03:14 PM
Panelwright - you are correct that an HRV is not the only way to go; if Rlt follows my advice and buys the book, he'll see that. What I've seen is that too often a system gets turned off and not used - especially if it is an exhust only system in the living space (like a bath fan)(and like the ones shown in 11.1- 11.9.) HRVs are relatively simple machines, typically installed in the mechanical area and quiet - although they do have to be cleaned regularly. You can set them to be on all the time or come on a preset schedule. Fig 11.11 won't work in this case because they have radiant heat.

Dr Lsiburek also says that "these type of systems (HRVs & ERV's) are arguably the best type of ventilation technology available." So if they are building one of the best types of building systems (SIPS) why not use the best ventilation system?
Bob
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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31 Dec 2009 04:15 PM
I have an ERV in my own home and would never recommend that a customer install one again. (in our climate)

Fresh air can be introduced a lot less expensive and easily controlled with a 4" duct and damper

I have heard salesman make it sound like you will suffocate while sleeping if you don't have one
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
Bob IUser is Offline
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31 Dec 2009 04:28 PM
Indoor air quality is one of the most important qualities of a new house, and is worth the relatively tiny investment in the best method of assuring that. In cold climates such as NH, bringing -5o outdoor air into the living space is unacceptable. Recovering the heat from the outgoing stale air and using it to temper incoming air just makes sense.
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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31 Dec 2009 05:12 PM
Bob;

I agree with you for the Northern Climates, as you need to circulate in pre conditioned air in frigid weather, however in the south it is a different story, for what little is needed in the summer, going in and out of the front door will suffice.
But hey its New Years Eve and I have the back door open
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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04 Jan 2010 06:31 PM
Posted By Dana1 on 12/16/2009 2:07 PM
But under no circumstances should you try to do it with a whole-house fan.

I think that installing one will lower your HERS rating, even though I tend to agree it's often not an intelligent thing.  Just a rumor perhaps someone can confirm/deny.


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05 Jan 2010 12:00 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 12/31/2009 4:15 PM
I have an ERV in my own home and would never recommend that a customer install one again. (in our climate)

Fresh air can be introduced a lot less expensive and easily controlled with a 4" duct and damper

I have heard salesman make it sound like you will suffocate while sleeping if you don't have one


I'm surprised an ERV would seem like such a bad option in central Florida. Is this just an issue of the cost or have you had problems with performance? When running energy calculations I looked at the predicted energy savings from the one I plan on using and it appeared to be well worth it for reducing cooling loads. I would think it would be especially helpful in moisture control to temper the humidity of the incoming air (however I also expect to have a dehumidifier). I prefer to have mechanical ventilation to control how I distribute fresh air (exhaust bathroom/kitchen storage areas and fresh air in to living areas). The ERV can run from the same energy as an incandescent lightbulb.
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05 Jan 2010 12:29 PM
Posted By Torben on 01/05/2010 12:00 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 12/31/2009 4:15 PM

I'm surprised an ERV would seem like such a bad option in central Florida. Is this just an issue of the cost or have you had problems with performance? When running energy calculations I looked at the predicted energy savings from the one I plan on using and it appeared to be well worth it for reducing cooling loads. I would think it would be especially helpful in moisture control to temper the humidity of the incoming air (however I also expect to have a dehumidifier). I prefer to have mechanical ventilation to control how I distribute fresh air (exhaust bathroom/kitchen storage areas and fresh air in to living areas). The ERV can run from the same energy as an incandescent lightbulb.
Torben;

Its not an option I would reccomend based on the cost and ROI, the perception that they are needed is eggagerated.
Not sure which one you are using? mine is Renewaire EV-130 (Mitsubishi)

If you are using it in lieu of bath exhaust fans it will take forever to recoup the upfront cost, if you are using for fresh air there are much cheaper alternatives.

Your standard bath exhaust uses the same as a light bulb too without the initial high cost.

you can also temper the incoming air with a FA duct into the cold air return

Not sure how  it will reduce the cooling loads?
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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05 Jan 2010 02:43 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 01/05/2010 12:29 PM
Posted By Torben on 01/05/2010 12:00 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 12/31/2009 4:15 PM

I'm surprised an ERV would seem like such a bad option in central Florida. Is this just an issue of the cost or have you had problems with performance? When running energy calculations I looked at the predicted energy savings from the one I plan on using and it appeared to be well worth it for reducing cooling loads. I would think it would be especially helpful in moisture control to temper the humidity of the incoming air (however I also expect to have a dehumidifier). I prefer to have mechanical ventilation to control how I distribute fresh air (exhaust bathroom/kitchen storage areas and fresh air in to living areas). The ERV can run from the same energy as an incandescent lightbulb.
Torben;

Its not an option I would reccomend based on the cost and ROI, the perception that they are needed is eggagerated.
Not sure which one you are using? mine is Renewaire EV-130 (Mitsubishi)

If you are using it in lieu of bath exhaust fans it will take forever to recoup the upfront cost, if you are using for fresh air there are much cheaper alternatives.

Your standard bath exhaust uses the same as a light bulb too without the initial high cost.

you can also temper the incoming air with a FA duct into the cold air return

Not sure how  it will reduce the cooling loads?


Chris, Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was missing. I would be using an EV200 on a separate ventilation system than the AC/Heat but my duct runs will still be minimal. I found an overstock unit (~$500) versus the approx. $180 (3x$60) for good quality bathroom fans. The EV200 is 53% efficient for cooling loads. The reduced cooling loads (for air conditioning) are realized because the fresh air I am bringing in is already partially cooled and dehumidified (and filtered) by the exhaust air. The energy cost to run the ERV appears to be little more than the multiple bathroom fans. I like the indoor air quality benefits of choosing what air to remove and where to bring in the fresh air -essentially creating the fresh air circulation route of most benefit to the occupants.
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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05 Jan 2010 02:48 PM
Torben;

just from my own experience you can't run the ERV more than 20% of the time in the summer as it will drive up the humidity in the home, in winter you can run 24/7
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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