I have numbers for 2x6 plus exterior XPS, numbers for double stud 2x4, numbers for full ICF, numbers for EPS SIPs and Urethane SIPs...so here is the run down:

I know a lot comes down to the caulking and sealing of the installation of all systems, but truely, how much more efficient are SIPs compared to these other systems?

Here how they all fall into place:

DIY, mind you....

all materials for wood framed walls (exterior XPS and double stud about the same in the end)-  around $6000  2x6 with foam, somewhere around R-25, double stud around R-35-40.
4" urethane SIPs- R-26  $8000
4" EPS SIPs- did not price due to low R
6" urethane SIPs- R-41  $10,000  built locally within 2 hrs
6" EPS SIPs- R23- for some reason, $11,000 Porter SIPs (will get another quote)
ICF- lets not go there.  well over 2x the price of everything.

So with easy math out in front, big advantages to the SIPs will be faster install, I hope.  However my question is, can you truely compare the Rs listed above with SIPs to even highly detailed framing?
The 4" urethane SIPs are only a couple K more then the stick framing, but I am of the opinion it would be money well spend, even for the 6" option.  THe R is, in my opinion, almost a guaranteed R assuming it is caulked and sealed per manuf. instruction.

I know the sip preachers will say there is no comparison, but I am looking for true feedback on TRUE performance (not just advertised R) of SIPs vs tight (as possible) framing.  Basically can you honestly compare the SIPs R-26 to a built up wall and adding the parts together to get R-26?  I tend to think not. 
I think time will also play a big factor into this as well since its DIY. 

Is this just the cost for ONE wall? Or a complete shell? Or just the walls of a shell?

ICF might be cheaper then you think.

for the 4" thick forms, from buildblock, they are $3.53-$3.84 per sqft. for the forms (minus shipping)

for the 6" thick forms, from buildblock, they are $3.57-$3.96 per sqft. for the forms (minus shipping)

for the 8" thick forms, from buildblock, they are $3.70-$4.10 per sqft. for the forms (minus shipping)

Those are the "retail" prices, so there is wiggle room to save .10-.15 cents per sqft

Factor in concrete. re-bar and labor. which is gonna make or break you. You can try to calculate your concrete needs for the walls, http://www.buildblock.com/technical.asp



Here is some interesting data I found on : http://www.ebuildingsystems.com/orders.html

They are basically saying $15.00 per sqft INSTALLED?? Is that a high price, or low?
If that is true, a 2500 sq ft basement will roughly run you $37,500 + slab + subfloor + finish

From there website:
ICF Wall Systems - Height x Width x $ 0.00 per square foot

Materials - $5.00 per square foot. Cost is contingent on the amount of corners, doors and windows.

Labor - $5.00 per square foot -

Concrete Re-bar, Bracing & Other Misc. Materials - $5.00 per square foot.

I am going to try to keep an eye on this thread... as I am in the same exact boat as far as trying to price things out ect.

For SIPS, call Chris (not me, my name is Chris as well) @ http://www.lamitindustries.com/index.html

He is VERY knowledgeable. I spoke with him this morning, and from what he told me, he said $5.50 - $6.00 per sqft, for the 12" thick SIPs w/ no cut outs. no delivery. Price would go up for cuts and delivery of course.   I would think 6" thick would be at least 1.00 or more cheaper? 

One cool thing, is they can do 8ft wide x < 24ft tall panels, which would save a ton on install time I would think? especially for the roof, and long back/side walls, depending on your design.

Chris

I have all of the numbers from everyone, including ICF.  I do not trust myself to DIY ICF, so that plays a big part into it as well.  (i did get prices from my TF supplier as I have heard they are more DIY friendly).

Numbers I listed were for the full shell, materials only, no labor or roof.

ICF, 8"" block is (for the basement) 188 LF of 8' walls
Block - $7,115 Materials - $8,455 Pump Truck - $900 Labor - $6,940, $5,700 for footing, $900 waterproofing.  NO flatwork, garage frost walls, rock, drainage, etc included :  $30,010  Plus you have to add the interior gyp to this price before you can occupy...we were not wanting to finish our basement just yet.

To compare, I have gotten poured quotes as well as Superior wall quote, which was $17,900 installed including frost walls for the garage. (again, no flatwork)

my 8" poured quote, including rock, flatwork for both a 1650 sqft basement slab, drainage, footings, 650 sqft garage slab, frost was, was $28,000.

For whole house ICF, the design would be reduced to 6" from footing to roof, 1 cont. structure with the floor suspended within the walls.  includes garage frost walls, no rock, drainage, flatwork, etc.
Block - $12,815 Materials - $13,950 Pump Truck - $1,800 Labor - $13,010 - 6,750 footings, 900 waterproofing- $49,225

So as you can see, ICF is way more expensive.  Basement Superior walls, all flatwork, drainage, garage floor, frost walls, and R-41 SIPs for the house, R-26 SIPs for the garage totals $44,000.

also, you said 2600 sqft basement @ $15 sqft.  Are you using 2600 floor area or wall surface area?  The price is per surface area.  Also typically it is $11-12 per surface area installed around here.

Posted By lzerarc on 16 Nov 2010 05:03 PM

Chris

I have all of the numbers from everyone, including ICF.  I do not trust myself to DIY ICF, so that plays a big part into it as well.  (i did get prices from my TF supplier as I have heard they are more DIY friendly).

Numbers I listed were for the full shell, materials only, no labor or roof.

ICF, 8"" block is (for the basement) 188 LF of 8' walls
Block - $7,115 Materials - $8,455 Pump Truck - $900 Labor - $6,940, $5,700 for footing, $900 waterproofing.  NO flatwork, garage frost walls, rock, drainage, etc included :  $30,010  Plus you have to add the interior gyp to this price before you can occupy...we were not wanting to finish our basement just yet.

To compare, I have gotten poured quotes as well as Superior wall quote, which was $17,900 installed including frost walls for the garage. (again, no flatwork)

my 8" poured quote, including rock, flatwork for both a 1650 sqft basement slab, drainage, footings, 650 sqft garage slab, frost was, was $28,000.

For whole house ICF, the design would be reduced to 6" from footing to roof, 1 cont. structure with the floor suspended within the walls.  includes garage frost walls, no rock, drainage, flatwork, etc.
Block - $12,815 Materials - $13,950 Pump Truck - $1,800 Labor - $13,010 - 6,750 footings, 900 waterproofing- $49,225

So as you can see, ICF is way more expensive.  Basement Superior walls, all flatwork, drainage, garage floor, frost walls, and R-41 SIPs for the house, R-26 SIPs for the garage totals $44,000.

Woah!  I didn't know ICF was that expensive!  Those numbers definitely opened my eyes.  Thank you for posting.

I've been snooping around this website for a couple days and it seems most people are pro ICF, but they cost a lot more, now I can see why.

I have also read A LOT of mixed reviews about Superior Walls, and how they are prone to leak, and something about you can't poor the floor until you have a sub floor up first?   (I have no idea myself, just relaying what I read) Although I am thinking it was the fact they neglected to put a proper water proofing system in place.  I also read that some of the walls were horribly set up, and misaligned (could be the speed thing)

I've talked to Superior Walls as well, and they seem to be the "fastest" as far as speed.  The lady I talked to said they just got done setting a 1600+- sq ft basement in like 6-7 hours.  Plus the price she quoted me, was inline with what you are telling me.   Only reason why I am not considering them is because of distance from where I want to build, freight would likely kill the price.

Again, TY for posting, I appreciate it.  As I am a completely new to this stuff.

Posted By lzerarc on 16 Nov 2010 05:10 PM
also, you said 2600 sqft basement @ $15 sqft.  Are you using 2600 floor area or wall surface area?  The price is per surface area.  Also typically it is $11-12 per surface area installed around here.

L X H X 4 walls (or however your basement is configured) X $15.00 = installed price, from them



"ICF Wall Systems - Height x Width x $ 0.00 per square foot

Materials - $5.00 per square foot. Cost is contingent on the amount of corners, doors and windows.

Labor - $5.00 per square foot -

Concrete Rebar, Bracing & Other Misc. Materials - $5.00 per square foot."

^  That's from there website.

My apologies, I jumped the gun.  
So is $11-$12 per surface area something I should be shooting for? 
Or is it solely based on location/contractor?
My location is gonna be Western Montana. 
With things like this, I wish there was a "standard"... like how you can go to the store and buy a coke for $.99 (example)
Something like:  Get a (insert your size) ICF basement for XXXXX.XX dollars, nationwide, or at least a "general number" ...
Everyone is so vague about this.  I guess that is what separates the shady contractors from the good ones?

you can not standardize construction unless you are doing the exact same house/footprint.  There are so many variables that affect the final price.  Travel distance, local price of product, corners on the house, wall heights, window and door opening sizes and quantities, etc. 

My Superior wall quote included delivery and setup.  It is my understanding that is how they quote it.  Yours could have included delivery as well.  I have done lots and lots of reading and research on SW.  Like anything, it really comes down to the installer.  The wall itself can not leak.  It is 5000psf concrete and water can not penetrate that like it can a poured basement wall (around 2500-3000 psf). it also had an r-12 XPS cast right in, with 8" deep cavities to add a lot more insulation.  The joints are bolted and caulked with a 15 year warranty.  If you do not trust the caulk joint alone, I think I will add double pertection by installing a peal and stick rubber waterproofer tape over the caulk joint prior to backfilling.  The slab can be poured after it is set, however the deck has to be framed before you can backfill.  The slab and deck work to stabalize the walls.  I do a lot of designs with precast concrete.  The beauty of precast and factory made products are quality control is typically MUCH higher then any site cast or formed option.  The panels arrive to the site perfect.  It is up to the installers to place them square and plumb.  Keep doing some research.  There are several people on this forum that has used them and really like them.  My plan is, if I select them, to be onsite during the install to "not let them get away" until it passes my inspection.  And trust me, it will be inspected very closely

I have built with traditional stick framing (2x6), strawbale and now SIP's for my last three homes. The latter by far was easier to build and is much more efficient and airtight. We are in the last week of November and have yet to fire up our furnace (we live in Ontario, Canada). The masonry heater puts out so much heat and it's retained in the home for more than 24hrs. One fire a day and the house stays at a very comfortable 24 C or 76 F. The house is so tight that the masonry heater will actually not work well without the HRV bringing in fresh air or cracking a window. If I was to build again, SIPs are at the top of the list along with ICF (haven't done this yet).

Kyle
what SIPs do you have and how thick? (6" EPS, urethane?)

I am crunching numbers trying to make SIPs work on our house.  I would like to do the 6" and get the R41, but the 4" still gives me an R26 with faster build, savings of 2k+, and I would not doubt a tighter construction vs framing.  Plus the 4" you can use standard window jambs and doors to save money there as well. 
I am assuming I could shave a couple weeks off the construction (DIY) which further relates to added savings in construction loan interest costs to give me a faster close date.

The more and more I look into exterior XPS, the less and less I like it.  It is in the details obviously, but attaching siding and things are putting all of those holes through your system of air sealing, even with strapping.

I am also considering the basement SIPs, which are 8" thick walls (R50-something), and cost around 17k.  However the Superior walls came in around 19k installed, plus they are concrete...

Izerarc;

I would stick with concrete in the ground and put additional insulation in the roof where it is most important

The basement (especially with living space and walkout) is almost as important as the exterior shell above ground. Besides, the sip or superior wall price is almost the same as an uninsulated poured 8" wall. (about 1-3k less. Add 2" exterior XPS and the price is the same).

Posted By lzerarc on 24 Nov 2010 09:34 AM
Kyle
what SIPs do you have and how thick? (6" EPS, urethane?)

I am crunching numbers trying to make SIPs work on our house.  I would like to do the 6" and get the R41, but the 4" still gives me an R26 with faster build, savings of 2k+, and I would not doubt a tighter construction vs framing.  Plus the 4" you can use standard window jambs and doors to save money there as well. 
I am assuming I could shave a couple weeks off the construction (DIY) which further relates to added savings in construction loan interest costs to give me a faster close date.

The more and more I look into exterior XPS, the less and less I like it.  It is in the details obviously, but attaching siding and things are putting all of those holes through your system of air sealing, even with strapping.

I am also considering the basement SIPs, which are 8" thick walls (R50-something), and cost around 17k.  However the Superior walls came in around 19k installed, plus they are concrete...

We have 6" EPS SIP's. Our windows/doors are triple pane fiberglass from Fibertec which are custom so the thickness of walls were matched during manufacturing. We did not go with SIPs for the roof as it's a one story craftsman ranch/bungalow and instead went with cellulose (R50+/23"). Our basement is concrete insulated on the interior. I would have liked to have gone ICF but it was just one too many things to get planned during the process. I was GC and also carpenter on the project. The SIPs were simple, bottom line. Granted the style of the house helped a great deal because they were all blank 9' SIPs, stand them up, glue them, get them tight and voila. Cutting the holes for the doors and windows was easy as well. I will upload some pics of the process and the final house.

Great to hear.  Any reason why you did not order them precut for the openings?  Did you save quite a bit cutting them yourself?

I have a program I got from a professor I saved from college that accurately figures heat loads and costs based on window types, wall r values, air infiltration, etc.  Inputting serveral different combinations of walls and windows, I think I have decided to use the 4" urethane SIPs with the Marvin Integrity.  They give me a r-26, and the windows are not high performing, but costs do not work themselves out with gas/electric prices.
There is a $2100 difference between the 4" and 6" (r-41), and that payback period was about 32 years (not including possible extra financing cost for an extra 2100).

I have gotten quotes from Inline fiberglass and Fibertec, as well as the typical Anderson 400s, Marvin Integrity and Marvin Premium, Pella, etc.  The dual pane Fibertecs were about $1000 more then the Marvin Integrity, and then going triple pane (on at least north windows) added another 1300, so around 2300 more.  This pay off was about 40 years using u-29 for the integrity and u-21 for the Fibertec.

The precuts were more expensive, quite a bit more if I recall correctly. Also if one makes a mistake and gives the factory the wrong size/placement, the risk is yours and now you have a hole that is bigger or in the wrong place. We have a decent number of windows and 4 french doors but it was still easy to cut on-site.

We also looked at Marvin, Pella, Anderson, Hurd and Lowen. The latter were quoted at $68,000 - wow! Nice windows but damn that is expensive. Based on where we live (Eastern Ontario) and the winters we get, it made sense to go with fiberglass and triple pane because we really don't have much passive solar as we have a large covered deck where most of the windows are and we are surrounded by trees. I wanted to build a house that was very efficient what with the crazy Ontario hydro bills (increasing by 46% over the next few years) and the price of carbon fuels will be expensive over the coming years. We had a masonry heater built and it heats the entire house without issue. When it's -15c outside, we are comfortable at 21-23c (72-76f) inside. One fire heats the home for about 24 hrs and I don't expect to have to supplement until we get the really cold weather -20 to -30c.

Unfortunately I can't post pics because they are too large.

interesting. I will call my sips guy and see if the price drops much for blank panels. if it is only 1-2k, i will probably still have them do it due to speed of construction. however you do make a good point about wrong panels. however i guess that is the point of good drawings and checking the shop drawings (I am producing the drawings and revewing their shops so I know it will correct)

Posted By lzerarc on 27 Nov 2010 08:30 PM 
(I am producing the drawings and revewing their shops so I know it will correct)

Not a guarantee that mistakes are not made at the maufacturing end, one reason we prefer blank panels. However if you are a DIY'er you would be better off with a precut package.

Posted By cmkavala on 28 Nov 2010 07:59 AM

Posted By lzerarc on 27 Nov 2010 08:30 PM 
(I am producing the drawings and revewing their shops so I know it will correct)

Not a guarantee that mistakes are not made at the maufacturing end, one reason we prefer blank panels. However if you are a DIY'er you would be better off with a precut package.

I'm with Chris on this one because if one panel is wrong, getting another panel takes a lot of time unless you are near to the manufacturer. You take the risk either way because one could make the mistake on-site as well but with the windows there in front of you, and the walls already up, it's very visual. I am a DIY'er and still did the cuts on-site and it really didn't take a lot of extra time. Like any construction task, you have to plan and measure carefully.

Posted By cmkavala on 28 Nov 2010 07:59 AM

Posted By lzerarc on 27 Nov 2010 08:30 PM 
(I am producing the drawings and revewing their shops so I know it will correct)

Not a guarantee that mistakes are not made at the maufacturing end, one reason we prefer blank panels. However if you are a DIY'er you would be better off with a precut package.

True, they can always be delivered wrong.  I am a DIYer, but with 6 years of residential construction experience, along with my degree and career backing it, so I can handle cutting them I would imagine.

One question however, how do you typically cut them onsite?  I see they have chainsaw style adaptors, and then there is also a hot knife style tool to carve out the foam for the 2x material.  If I go with the 4" panel, do you think a simple circular saw would be able to cut these?  I would have to get it out to measure the blade to see how thick it can cut.  Another thing is we do not have that many windows in our plan. 
I will call them on monday and see what the discount is.

izerarc;

yes you can cut with just a skil saw on each side, instead of buying an expensive electric hot knife you can simply use an electric charcol lighter ($12. at Lowes, home Depot or Target)  that actually works faster than the knife.