Problem with SIP basement / backfill
Last Post 27 Sep 2018 08:11 AM by scottishjohn. 39 Replies.
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JusolsonUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2013 04:21 PM
Hello everybody,

I'd like some insight into a problem I have discovered in our house.  First a little background...  My wife and I built our house last summer, it is a 1800 sq main floor with a full unfinished basement.  The house is built with SIP basement panels and SIP exterior walls.  It uses conventional roof trusses.  Our builder has done many SIP houses and is very knowledgeable with the process of these.

Anyway like I said the house was completed about a year ago and we were very satisfied with the end result.  I am very picky and knowledgeable about the building process ( I've worked a few winters on a framing crew, built my own garage, ect..)  Our house is a custom build and I was on site for the entire build inspecting everything, ect...   Our house is also located on a farm/ranch so we don't have local city/town permiting crap to deal with, but I don't cut corners.  All went well with the build.  This winter I was doing some inspecting in the basement and have found the basement walls to be moving inwards due to the pressure of the backfill against it.

Like I said the walls are SIP panels with 2x8 studs on 12" center and green treat plywood on the outside, osb on the inside.  From what I've inspected the top plates are not moving, but the studs and foam are moving beneath it, indicating that the connection between the studs and top plates is failing.  The bottom of the walls cannot move as the concrete floor locks that in.  I've checked all the walls and while it is worse on some, ( the worse spot has moved 3/4") they all are showing some signs of moving. 

This concerns me alot.  I've talked breifly with our builder and he will come out to inspect it hopefully on Monday before the holidays.  I guess what I'm looking from you guys is any advise, course of action I should insist on from the builder, ect....  I really hope he is professional about it, but I am preparing for the worse.  You know, some kind of answer like, " well they all will move a little bit"... to me that would be completely unsatisfactory.   If I would have known they all would move inward I never would have used a SIP basement.  I am a person that will do what it takes to do this RIGHT.   To me the only way to fix this is to dig out and expose the walls, straighten the walls, and do something to prevent this problem in the future.  I'm stumped on how to fix this right.  I cannot picture a way to add bracing on the inside.  adding more nails is not going stop it.  My thought is to pour a cement wall on the outside.  Costly and maybe over kill i'm sure.  But I want peace of mind.  Maybe insist on an engineering report??  Sorry if this seems like a rant, but just wanted different opinions so I have something to suggest to the builder if he trys to blow it off because I WILL be a pain in his rear to correct this.


The picture I added is taken in the floor joists looking straight down at the top of the basement wall.  You can see the in the gap the stud and white foam.
AltonUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2013 04:45 PM
How tall is the backfill on the basement walls and what was the backfill?  For example, was the backfill at least 7' tall and was the backfill clean gravel?  Is your area subject to severe freeze/thaw conditions?
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JusolsonUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2013 07:43 PM
The backfill is at 8' on the back and probally around 7' on the front. Its odd, the lowest side is showing the worse movement. Walls are maybe 20' long at most, as there are some jogs around the perimiter. There is a few sheer walls in the basement, but 1- 2 feet from the sheer wall shows signs of moving. The backfill is the same stuff that was excavated. Its a sand and clay mixture, but pearock over the drain tile. We are located in North Dakota so it will freeze 4 feet down or more depending on cover. We had alot of rain since September, my sump pail still fills about once a day. SO I'm sure its settled about as much as its going to.
AltonUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2013 08:17 PM

My guess is that the backfill swelled either from moisture in the clay or from freezing.  Certain types of clay can expand enough when wet to cause damage.    Clay can trap moisture that could freeze in your climate.

By the way, what angle was cut on the hole for the basement?  For example were the earth banks left vertical (90 degrees) or sloped at 60 degrees?  Angled banks will allow for slippage when the backfill expands, especially if the backfill is clean gravel topped off with about a foot of clay.  Clean gravel allows the water that penetrates the top layer of clay to fall to the foundation drain.

If we can understand what caused the problem, then maybe a fix can be determined.  Local contractors should be much more knowledgeable than someone like me from the southeast U.S.

Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
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cmkavalaUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2013 08:51 PM

Jusolson,
It is very hard to tell if your wall is actually a true “SIP” ,from your description it sounds more like a fabricated stud wall with foam insulation in between, or a treated wood foundation, was there an actual concrete footer or a flat wood member over pea gravel
If it is actually a factory built SIP… who is the manufacturer?
If it is a framed wall there may be insufficient fasteners to keep it from separating at the top plate,
Alton is correct about gravel fill being better than the existing clay
If the wall continues to push in, the waterproof membrane will be compromised as well. Is there any water coming in yet
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
JusolsonUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2013 11:00 PM
The Panels are a "SIP"  The manufacture is Enercept.  We actually toured the plant where they make the panels.  The basement panels rest on a concrete footing like any other building would.  They used a pretty thick water proofing membrane on the outside, and I have seen zero water other than the sump pail.   The panels are 4' wide then after placing the panels two top plates are fastened on top of these, then floor joists, ect...  The sides of the hole where pretty much straight down, definitely not angled.  I agree in hindsight maybe the use of a course gravel would have been better.  I wish I would have known to look for movement before it froze to know if it was occurring before the frost.  My big concern is if it is going to continue to move, or after these first few winters/ cycles this will be it.  I want to finish the basement in the next few years with maybe sheetrock next winter.  If this continues, it will cause cracked sheetrock, and limit my access to view/ monitor it.  I feel like the house so far is solid, as I have not observed even a slight crack in sheetrock upstairs anywhere.  Even if the fasteners where inadequate from the top plate into the panels, the question about HOW to remedy it remains.  Here is a pic before backfilling on the south east corner
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20 Dec 2013 11:46 PM
It is the sips that caused the problem but not through any fault of their own. They just insulate to good and don't let enough heat through to prevent the ground next to the basement from freezing.

This is compounded by the high backfill and the fact the fresh fill is very porous. The top loose backfill probably absorbed a fair amount of moisture before freeze up. As it froze, like Alton mentions, it expands and as it is near the top of the wall it has maximum leverage. Mere nails cannot withstand the strength of expanding clays. I hope you at least had eaves trough on?

We have seen similair problems with well insulated wood (PWF) basements. The Canadian code for PWF's require that metal straps be nailed to the inside of the stud face, wrapped over the top plate and then nailed up the trim joist or truss end. This is much more secure then just nailing the trim joist to the top plate. Also all PWF's must be supervise by a P.Eng. and he is responsible for designing the connection and stud strength in relation to the backfill height.

Even with the straps, it is important (as others have said) to make sure the backfill material is self draining. I prefer to cap the granular fill with a 8 to 12 inch layer of clay prior to placing the topsoil.

9.4.3 Framing Anchors and Straps
When required by Clause 12 to provide positive load transfer to the main floor joist system
from the wall studs and by Clause 9.2 for framing around wall openings, framing straps
shall be 35 mm (1 3;8 in) by minimum 0.9 mm (24 gauge) thickness galvanized steel of
appropriate length, and framing anchors shall have a minimum load capacity of 1.3 kN
(300Ib).
Note: Straps used to connect the wall stud to the main floor should be at least 600 mm (24 in) in length.
See Table 7, and Figures A 19 and A20 for illustrations.

Have you looked on the outside? Is the outside face of the sip moving inward or is the sip delaminating?
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21 Dec 2013 03:41 AM
Posted By Jusolson on 20 Dec 2013 11:00 PM
The Panels are a "SIP"  The manufacture is Enercept.  We actually toured the plant where they make the panels.  The basement panels rest on a concrete footing like any other building would.  They used a pretty thick water proofing membrane on the outside, and I have seen zero water other than the sump pail.   The panels are 4' wide then after placing the panels two top plates are fastened on top of these, then floor joists, ect...  The sides of the hole where pretty much straight down, definitely not angled.  I agree in hindsight maybe the use of a course gravel would have been better.  I wish I would have known to look for movement before it froze to know if it was occurring before the frost.  My big concern is if it is going to continue to move, or after these first few winters/ cycles this will be it.  I want to finish the basement in the next few years with maybe sheetrock next winter.  If this continues, it will cause cracked sheetrock, and limit my access to view/ monitor it.  I feel like the house so far is solid, as I have not observed even a slight crack in sheetrock upstairs anywhere.  Even if the fasteners where inadequate from the top plate into the panels, the question about HOW to remedy it remains.  Here is a pic before backfilling on the south east corner



Photos provide a great record of events and methods,
I wish you well with your contractor meeting, if it is is a connection problem, he may need to re-excavate, push back out and re- fasten.
Since you know for sure they are Enercept, you could enquire about the correct connection @ top wall/plate / Joists to see if that happened or check your permit plans to see if it is noted there?
Let us know the outcome of your meeting
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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25 Dec 2013 02:49 PM
JusOlson : Every foundation system has their plus's and minus's.
Poured concrete has high strength and low R value, but , it does resist lateral backfill pressures very well.
ICF foundations combine high R value and if adequately re-inforced with rebar, very high lateral backfill resistance also.
Hollow core masonry block is inferior on both levels.
SIPS are high in R-value but from your experience, already shown to have low resistance to lateral backfill pressures.
Similarly PWF foundations are weak laterally also.

Personally, I would not lay any blame at the feet of your builder as the choice of building systems was yours.
SIPS are DIY friendly and the majority of concrete work requires a high overhead and equipment burden , so the choice for SIPS and PWF in the hands of DIYers is easy to make :-)

Remedial requires you to dig up the perimeter and backfill with lightweight fill. This is an excellent way to get rid of your ICF foam scraps etc.
An air-gap drainage membrane on the perimeter of the SIPS fdn would also be a good idea.

If in doubt of what i have written, consult with a local Soils P.Eng or Technician and have them do the math on the backfill pressure.
You might be surprised.
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25 Dec 2013 05:11 PM
Posted By eric monkman on 25 Dec 2013 02:49 PM
Personally, I would not lay any blame at the feet of your builder as the choice of building systems was yours.
SIPS are DIY friendly and the majority of concrete work requires a high overhead and equipment burden , so the choice for SIPS and PWF in the hands of DIYers is easy to make :-)

Remedial requires you to dig up the perimeter and backfill with lightweight fill. This is an excellent way to get rid of your ICF foam scraps etc.



eric,
could not disagree with you more! As a licensed builder , I am the professional.(and how any licensing board would view it)
In this case the builder can choose to walk away from the project, if they feel the building system is inferior or they can persuade the home owner in a different direction, but since the builder did not , he has a duty to properly install the system. I think at the end of the day it will show that there was a defect in the (wall/floor) fastening and quite possibly using substandard backfill.

on another note: the last thing I would ever suggest is to use ICF scraps (debris) in with fill, it creates unstable fill and if the area ever needs to be dug thru somebody's going to be cussin. In most areas would be against code to throw debris with fill, clean fill is required
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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26 Dec 2013 08:51 PM
Chris :
The backfill used in this situation is overloading the the SIPS installation.

In addition wet weather can add substantially to the soil weight if it is not free draining.

If the SIPS system cannot handle the load to which it is being subjected, it is therefore a poor choice.

The person responsible for the design of the structure should have taken into account all the variables.Soil density, lateral backfill pressure and structural integrity/limitations.
Lateral backfill tables are included in most high quality ICF Product Installation manuals for example.

SIPS above grade are an excellent choice, but below grade not in the same class as ICF's. Nothing is perfect :-) imho

You will find that EPS foam fill is used extensively to reduce backfill weight in many circumstances in Roads, Bridge approaches, and Residential applications.
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27 Dec 2013 07:41 AM
Posted By eric monkman on 26 Dec 2013 08:51 PM
Chris :
The backfill used in this situation is overloading the the SIPS installation.

In addition wet weather can add substantially to the soil weight if it is not free draining.

If the SIPS system cannot handle the load to which it is being subjected, it is therefore a poor choice.

The person responsible for the design of the structure should have taken into account all the variables.Soil density, lateral backfill pressure and structural integrity/limitations.
Lateral backfill tables are included in most high quality ICF Product Installation manuals for example.

SIPS above grade are an excellent choice, but below grade not in the same class as ICF's. Nothing is perfect :-) imho

You will find that EPS foam fill is used extensively to reduce backfill weight in many circumstances in Roads, Bridge approaches, and Residential applications.



Eric:
Yes possibly the fill is overloading the connection,however at this point we don't know if the connection was done in accordance with the plans or specs
I don't agree that it was a poor choice, but a poor install
chunks of EPS debris are not used for roads and bridges, but large dense blocks are intentionally layered and enginnered for stabilization or insulation in place of fill: GEO Foam


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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27 Dec 2013 10:39 AM
It is (almost) always possible to engineer the soil load to the strength of the wall but it usually better to engineer the wall to the load of the soil.

If you are going to use something that needs to be restrained top and bottom, please make sure that is happening.

EPS scraps laid on the footing prior to backfill, where it can provide some additional wing insulation is much greener then hauling it to the dump. This is not the case with other building material scraps and I agree that when I do a dig for a reno and start pulling up wire scraps etc. I get upset because I don't know if I have hit a live wire or just scrap.
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27 Dec 2013 11:19 AM
Swelling clay and freezing expansion are reduced if you can keep it very dry. So something like this would keep surface water away from the wall while not requiring much digging.
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27 Dec 2013 11:36 AM
Jon - op is going to have to dig anyway to repair (or replace) the wall. He might as well make sure the soils match the wall.
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04 Jan 2014 12:39 AM
Hi everybody, thanks again for all the discussion. I thought I'd give a quick update as I met with our builder the other day. He came out to basically look it over himself so he could understand what was going wrong. This builder has been in the business, 25+ years, done numerous SIP houses ( even his own personal house is SIP with SIP basement) and said he has not seen this kind of problem at all. He said that sometimes he sees a wall bow in a bit from the pressure, maybe 1/4 -3/8", but the top plates along with the floor truss would flex some, but not like this problem. His initial concern is if those top plates were fastened correctly to each vertical stud in the panels. He was just spit balling ideas, but maybe heavy screws would have to installed at each stud to help. He couldn't really give me any concrete answers/ solutions right now. He was going to get in touch with the SIP manufacture to see what they have to say. So I'm kinda at a stand still as far as answers/ course of action. I brought up a soils engineering report and he was not oppose to that. He also thought that this would have happened within a short time after backfilling, I'm not so sure, and we have no way of knowing anyways so I guess its moot to argue. He said that they have always used the soils on site and haven't' had problems, so I'm the lucky one. I mentioned I have no problem digging it out to repair it, but he said that it would be hard to push the walls back out to correct the deflection, at least not the ones that have only moved maybe a 1/4", but might gain a little on the one wall that is the worse ( 3/4" - 1" ). Other than that he didn't say much, and I made it plenty clear that I was not happy and want a solution. He understood and never objected. So like I said... wait and see.
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23 Feb 2014 12:34 AM
Julolson, Did you find a solution with your builder?
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23 Feb 2014 01:08 AM
Whats the real life expectancy of basement retaining wall made of wood?

Wouldn't the mold kill you first?
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23 Feb 2014 01:57 AM
for a properly designed and built PWF basement, oh at least 50 years and maybe 100. No mould. would be dryer then c.i.p. concrete.

No idea on a sip as what we have seen here doesn't seem to be well thought out.
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17 Mar 2014 12:24 PM
Posted By Jusolson on 04 Jan 2014 12:39 AM
Hi everybody, thanks again for all the discussion. I thought I'd give a quick update as I met with our builder the other day. He came out to basically look it over himself so he could understand what was going wrong. This builder has been in the business, 25+ years, done numerous SIP houses ( even his own personal house is SIP with SIP basement) and said he has not seen this kind of problem at all. He said that sometimes he sees a wall bow in a bit from the pressure, maybe 1/4 -3/8", but the top plates along with the floor truss would flex some, but not like this problem. His initial concern is if those top plates were fastened correctly to each vertical stud in the panels. He was just spit balling ideas, but maybe heavy screws would have to installed at each stud to help. He couldn't really give me any concrete answers/ solutions right now. He was going to get in touch with the SIP manufacture to see what they have to say. So I'm kinda at a stand still as far as answers/ course of action. I brought up a soils engineering report and he was not oppose to that. He also thought that this would have happened within a short time after backfilling, I'm not so sure, and we have no way of knowing anyways so I guess its moot to argue. He said that they have always used the soils on site and haven't' had problems, so I'm the lucky one. I mentioned I have no problem digging it out to repair it, but he said that it would be hard to push the walls back out to correct the deflection, at least not the ones that have only moved maybe a 1/4", but might gain a little on the one wall that is the worse ( 3/4" - 1" ). Other than that he didn't say much, and I made it plenty clear that I was not happy and want a solution. He understood and never objected. So like I said... wait and see.

Juloson,
      This is a very sad situation!  I suggest you talk to an attorney!  The builder is responsible, not the SIP maker!  It is obvious that 2 factors contribute to this situation:  1. Inadequate strength in the joint between the studs and the plate and the floor system.  2.  Improper backfill.  To fix this mess will require re-excavation down to the drainage system and replacement of the fill with gravel to within a few inches of final  grade.  while their is no back-fill  the failed structure must be repaired AND STRENGTHENED .   Unfortunately,  the repair of the failed joint from stud to plate will require that the inner OSB be cut out and insulation removed so that steel "joist angles" can be nailed (or screwed) to the studs and plates after the studs are "persuaded"  back into alignment with the plate.  FWIW my "persuader" is a 12 pound sledge hammer.   If the builders "corrective action plan"  doesn't include both of these elements talk some more with the attorney.  Please keep us informed!
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