I am building a new home, ICF construction, 2 story, 2500 sqft.  I am going with an open loop system.  My question is what is the typical cost for the unit alone.  I looking at both the Synergy 3 and Envision series.  I need 50K BTU but the one problem I am running into is trying to get an idea of the cost for the unit by itself.  Does anyone have actual unit costs?

I have the same problem!  I have talked with Waterfurnace rep but have not gotten a price quoted.  I wanted to know the price of the furnace/pump.  Then I could talk to different installers/diggers companies and reach out for the best price.    Is this a comon practice, I mean,  to hide the PUMP retail prices or am I wrong??

I'm getting Quotes now from contractors (for replacing the Geothermal unit only, no pump, well or Duct work) and I can tell you what the prces I'm getting, god only knows what the actual unit price is. $9,600 for a GS048, and $11,200 for a ES049. I'm waiting on some more right quotes now.  

I got some more quotes. Bryant Geothermal Water Source Heat pump (48k BTU) Single Stage, Variable-Speed fan  $7,450
                                                                             "                                       "        Two-Stage Variable-speed            $7,690

A cousin my mine works in Commerical HVAC said that if I got him the model numbers, he get what the actual units prices are. This information is of course of limited use to you, since even if armed with the knowledge of what the actual cost of the units are, you couldn't get the supplier to sell it to you anyway, but it does give you some idea of what the markup is on an installation.   

I don't know if this is useful, but there is someone on ebay selling Climatemaster and some other units, Just go to the ebay site and search for geothermal heat pumps and you should find it. I saw a Tranquility 27, 4 ton unit for $7,800 I believe. What this includes and how legit it is I don't know.

I am meeting with the contractor and Geothermal guy today so hopefully I will be able to get a complete cost breakdown, thanks everyone for the information. This gives me something to compare against.

try Terrasource / geothermaldiy.com for component pricing.

Know that from them you would just get pieces parts...no design engineering or application assistance

Agreed, but what me and other homeowners find so frustrating is the big secret in pricing. If you hire a carpenter to put an addtion on your house, it's easy enough to check what the prices are of the materials required for it at a Home Depot or 84 lumber, the same is true with a Plumber or Electrician. Every part/component can be broken down price wise so you know how much labor your being charged for the installation. I'm not a carpenter and I can't build an addition on my house myself, but what is the harm in knowing what the price is for the building materials? I'm also not a qualified HVAC installer, I'd me hard pressed to replace my existing Geothermal system, let alone the proper discharge of the Feon in the old system and the charging of the new one. What pisses me off is I can't check on the pricing of the equipment, I'm not denying that HVAC contractors a profit on there work, I would just like to know what that profit is.

Actually, I had a co-worker hook up a central air compressor on my former house that used gas heat. The total cost in equipment was less than 1k, If I had hired a HVAC contractor to do the job, I suspect the same job would have cost 3k at least. I firmly beleive the reason that pricing is so difficult to obtain is they don't want you to see how badly they are taking advantage of you price wise.  If this isn't true, then why the secret in equipment pricing? I also beleive they look you up and down and say hey I can get more profit out of this wealthly guy than this other poorer guy, another words pricing for the same exact job isn't the same, it's based on what they believe the consumer can pay. 
 
  

check on ebay. I saw some Waterfurnace models there. I am pretty sure that they had the "list" price as the minimum, but its a ballpark number.

Hi.

I'm new to the forums.

I've installed some EarthLinked DX systems. I can't talk for water source systems, other than they cost more.

The conversation here is out of line. You're basically calling me (an HVAC contractor) a lying cheat.

I'm going to list my approximate costs and what I charge on a bid for a 4 ton system--just for forced air heating and cooling.

Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes:
4 ton heat pump: $3,690
4 ton vertical ground loop: $2,255
125' of line set, approx. $1,100-$1,300
R-22 refrigerant, $200
Nitrogen, $45
heat pump thermostat, $200
duct, including the grilles, registers, duct seal, (always varies greatly), let's say it's a new home, 2000 s.f. per level, basement and main (NOT A RETROFIT COST): $2,400
condensate drain: $50-$100, depending if a pump is needed
acetylene and brazing rod: $50
freight: $450

This totals about $11,300. Next, I'll have to pay sales tax on all of this. That's an additional $710. Now my total material cost is $12,010.

Next, I have labor to install the above. It'll cost me about $45 per hour to pay my guys. This includes worker's comp, non-productive time, etc. I'll have to pay about $4,800 in labor. I'll also have to pay about 30% labor taxes on that. That adds another $1,440. So my total labor costs hopefully don't exceed $6,240. This is not my profit, this is my labor COST. In other areas, I've heard of the hourly cost being upwards of $85 per hour. (because of labor unions and dues, I'm told)

Overhead is next. I know this one, along with labor, varies greatly across the US. For my small company, and small amount of sales, I have to cover at least $1,800 of overhead for this job. This could easily need to be $3,500+ or so.

Now there's mileage. It costs me (just a pure cost) about $1.00 per mile of travel with a service/install truck. This is gas, tires, service and insurance. Let's say the mileage is only $100.

So, my costs (still haven't added drilling or excavation) total about $20,150.

Now, how much money do I need to survive? Are you okay with me getting $50,000 per year? It'll take about 1 week for us to get this system installed. Let's say (I wish) that I can sell 1 system per week. That would be phenomenal, but improbable. So, for 50 weeks/year, at $50,000 per year, that's $1,000 per system. Let me tell you, if I'm only making $1,000 per system, I'm going to go bankrupt. Why? because eventually--inevitably--I'll have to return to a system to fix it on warranty. Whether it's my fault or the manufacturer's, it costs me time, fuel, and materials to go back. Of course, we all want the system to never have problems, but...

Typically, I need to make at least $3,500 per system. So now, without drilling and excavation, the total is $23,650. When I can get a driller, they're typically $10 per foot in my area. So, for a 4 ton, that's $4,000 drilling. Now the price is up to $27,650. I'll need a backhoe for a day, another $350. So, I'm an even $28,000. This isn't always the case, but it's a good fair guess as to how much I'd charge. If an installer needs to make $5,000 per system, good for them. It's not a rip-off. You're getting exactly what supply/demand dictates. A fair price for a fair product.

Remember, this is for a NEW home. NOT a retrofit. For a house without duct, that needs it retrofitted, it'll cost me double the labor and overhead. It'll cost about 50% more on duct materials, and my liability is higher, too. It also takes longer, so I can't do as many systems.

Before anyone rags on me for wanting to make a profit, let me say this. I'm installing the most comfortable, reliable, efficient, safe, green heating and cooling system available. Do you get a Mercedes car for the price of a Yugo? Is a Yugo just as comfortable and safe as a Mercedes? No. You pay extra for a better product.

I'm installing a system in your house that will actually pay for itself in savings. How about your kitchen cabinets? The carpet? the tile? window and door trims? No. Geothermal is the best bang for the buck. Do I wish my costs were lower? Absolutely. When they become lower, I can lower my price. But until then, I have to maintain the price as it is, or I'll go bankrupt. Why do you all want us HVAC guys to go bankrupt?

Thank you for the cost break down, It helps us see how much everything costs for a 30k system in perspective. Actually 30k sounds reasonable to me for a complete close loop install.  I have one quote for a open loop FHP system replacement, for 10k, figuring a 4 ton unit is around 4,500 and a day or two labor at the most, I think that's pretty good profit for a contractor.    

Thanks thehtrguy.

One thing I'd point out, too, is that a water source system usually would be another $3,000-$8,000 for a closed loop drilled system, just because they have to have usually double the depth or more, compared to DX. With that, too, the closed water loop system will be less efficient, too.

HTRGUY--your response is one of the BEST which I have read on this forum. What this thread has exposed though is an interesting distrust between consumer and provider with a relatively new technology. I for one was floored when I started getting $15,000-$17,000 estimates for a Geo system when a hi-eff heat pump was $7,000. You are 100% right---you get what you pay for. In this case though, it sounds like estimate was not transparent and the homeowner was left questioning the huge figure. Your breakdown takes a sticker shock price and helps ground it in reality. Thanks.

Brad,
Contractors are tight lipped about pricing because consumer's are not honest when assessing job cost and overhead. Nobody breaks down the cost of the raw materials used to make a car and complains about the pricing because most understand that buying a new Chevy in part pays retiree health care etc.
A contractor that is significantly cheaper than his competitors in the area is likely not even aware of his own cost of doing business. In mid-Michigan large and small contractors are dropping like flies as building slows down. I know more than a few of these guys thought that if they recieved $2,000 for a $1,000 air conditioner installed in a 1/2 day that they were really making dough.
I frankly feel that the best way to serve my clients is to ensure that I'm in business long after the install in case they again need my services. The best way to do that is to have the awarness that a <$1,000 (incidently virtually unavailable with the new minimum efficiencies) air conditioner may actually cost me>$1,500 with related expense and overhead installed and is therefore not worth installing for $2,000. Of course I'm sure your buddy had liability insurance in case he mis-wired the thing and burned your house down, and workers comp. insurance so that he wouldn't sue you if he injured himself installing it and a service man on call Saturday if it were to break down while it was extremely hot out.........

From what I have read on this forum and others, Many of the systems are very good but the installer is the key factor. A great system sized wrong or installed wrong is not worth a dime. When I talk to the manufactures of these systems. Granted they are biased, Most issues with systems are a result of poor installation. Paying the most doesn't always mean the best or most knowldgeable. You need to do you research on the installer, If they are good it will show.

Thanks everyone for your input I really appreciated the cost breakdown from THEHTRGUY. I met with the contractor and I believe everything is clearer now. I will be getting a Synergy 3 unit new model apparently with dual stage and the price for the unit will be approximately 13K what is not clear yet is what that is including, install, thermostats, wiring.

Brad,
You are supporting my point. You know the price tag but not what you are getting for it.
Good luck!
Joe

The information thehtrguy wrote is very helpful, but I disagree with his premise that asking for details on pricing is wrong - he wrote "The conversation here is out of line. You're basically calling me (an HVAC contractor) a lying cheat."

I am a mechanical engineer.  I have yet to have a customer who would hire my services based on a single bottom line price.  First, they want to know that I understand the scope of work and have included all the appropriate costs.  Second, they want to know that I am not gouging them on price.

This country is still reeling from the fall out of the Bernie Madoff scandal.  Here is a guy who cheated people out of BILLIONS using this "don't you trust me" line.  Any consumer should be free to ask questions - and get accurate answers - when they spend their money.

I will ask a simple rhetorical question to thehtrguy (I am not trying to be mean) - do you have your customers sign a contract?  Why? If we follow your logic, isn't that also equal to calling them lying cheats?  The answer is that it is not - the contractor wants to know they will get paid, and they ask for a contract.  The owner wants to know that they get what they are paying for.  Both sides must build that trust through communication and honest dealings.

The fact that Geothermal saves money and energy (Yay!!!) doesn't mean that you don't have to do good work or justify your prices.  Everyone should be making a profit (or simply wages) on their work.  That is not the question.   Customers want to believe they are not being fleeced; unfortunately, there are many contractors who price the job based on what they think they can get away with and not actual costs plus fair profit.

As an example, I have recently had carpenters in to my house to quote me on replacing a window - a straight forward job that requires care but doesn't require certifications or special equipment.  I know what the window costs since I called the building supply house - they quoted me $1350.  For one day of work (the work has been completed now), and the cost of the window, I received estimates of $2000 to $6500.  When I started asking the $6500 guy how he got to that number, it became clear he was being unreasonable.  First he said the window was $3300 (more than 100% markup, which I find unreasonable) then he said it was a 2 day job.  Well, OK, even if 2 days was right, that means $3200/16 = $200/hour.  I am not willing to pay that.  Without being able to break the price down, I can not really judge which estimate is reasonable and which is not.

I do not expect my customers to provide charity to my company if we don't stay busy.  If I bill 150 hours in a month, everything is rosy.  If I bill 75 hours in a month, things are not so rosy, If I only have 40 hours of work in a month, it is time for me to look for another job, it is not time for me to charge my existing customers extra.   As a customer, I expect to pay for the labor costs (which should account for travel, anticipated follow-up work, etc) of the job at hand, and not subsidize a company that is not able to keep their employees busy. 

If you went into your Mercedes dealer, and they haven't sold any that month, is it reasonable for you to pay $50 million for one car, since they have to charge that much to keep the factory open?  I would say No.

David

The flaw with your logic is two fold , you assume everything that's not material is the wage being earned , simply not true and explained clearly above , second is the assumption that salary ( even the owners ) and profit are the one and the same , companies that think like that usually consist of one or two trucks and last under five years , I find it perfectly ethical for the owner to pay himself 100k ( for the hard work and assumed risk of the venture ) and when times are good provide the company with profit ( industry average under 2% , I believe under 20% is ethical around 10% reasonable ) Before anyone flies off the handlebars take a look a profit margins of some of the big boys , If McDonalds posted 10% profits heads would role . You have every right to inquire about pricing when you purchase , but the hesitation usually is not malicious , its the fact that most customers think just like you if its not direct material its the hourly rate .

In closing Im not familiar with the contractors you have had , but I can tell you we charge people in Greenwich ( average annual income well over 1 million per home ) the exact same price per task as a cust. in Hartford ( average around 40k per home ) and everyone thinks they should get a break , the rich guys say look at all the work Im giving you , the poor guy says my cousin will do it for half that .