Reason for such variation may be so many choices in building materials leading to a wide variety of load outcomes.

Might I suggest you start a new thread - you'l get more replies and they'll all be focused on your particular circumstances - you are at a crossroads with a huge nuber of choices to make - we can help you with those, but a new thread will make that easier.

Where are you located?

We own a Geothermal Installation business and we have put in one heat pump and priced in detail about 50 others. Many times we have taken entire weekends to design and size the proper equipment for a customer. We give a detailed list of equipment with installation as a lump sum price. This is standard in the building trade. About 2/3rds of the 50 potential clients received quotes and never even had the courtesy to say thank you but no. After chasing people just fishing and burning up our time we decided to take another approach. My feeling is if you really want a geothermal system (and I don't know anyone building a new house who should not) you can get as much information as you need from most honest installers. If you want to break down each pipe and nut you most likely are not a geothermal candidate. It's a little like buying a yacht, if you have to ask how much it is, you probably can't afford it. A geothermal system is a highly sophisticated, integrated system that will last 20 to 30 years. The up front up charge in a new house is about 50% over a conventional fossil fuel furnace installation. It is the best money anyone could spend in a new home to say nothing of the positive impact on the environment. Many people are interested in knowing about geothermal but as a business owner you must focus your time on real customers and not curiousity seekers.

In this case I personally did all the electical wiring, including replacing the thermostat wiring to support the additional wire required for Cooling, I also installed the line set, but he did the final connections, pressure tested and charged the system. His total time required was 2 hours at the most, but he did drop off the compressor to the back of the house for me. I didn't expect him to service the unit, this was a 1 ton system for a small house. I got a great deal, with a little more research, I could have installed everything myself and charged the system if a license wasn't required like it is now. (Note: this was roughly 5 years ago) 

Admitly I undersized the system, he suggest a 1 - 1/2 ton unit, but I said 1 ton was fine. It worked fine, but during extermely hot weather I couldn't get the temperature down to lower then 74 degrees F.
   

T.G.,
I'm glad your experience was a good one and I'm glad nothing went wrong (so you didn't regret employing the uninsured). You point out that you were not in the market for a contractor's services and therefore didn't pay a contractor's price. The only folly is comparing the cost of the two.
J

Frankly, I'd like a bit more information from installers when they give me a proposal. I am having a difficult time getting enough info to even begin to figure out what my total cost will be, much less help me decide which installer is offering the correct system for my house. Local proposals from supposedly experienced Geo installers have been unhelpful and confusing. Most of the quotes have been for the GHP units alone, electric and loops and plumbing are all extra and up to me to research and get. To complicate matters, a lot of contractors in my area assume everyone is wealthy and routinely overcharge based on house location. I have learned to give the address of one of my houses over the other one, simply because I get such different price quotes for each. Funny how water heaters, wells, kitchen cabinets and rugs, among other things, can cost much more on one side of town than the other. So you bet I am gun shy at this point. It is especially frustrating when I see people posting in forums what they paid for a particular brand of GHP and its tonnage and I am being quoted $8000 more for exactly the same unit. I don't have anything against a guy making a profit, just not a killing. I have to live too. It is also upsetting to know that folks in other parts of my state have recently had a successfully functioning, entire WF GHP system, the same size I would like, installed for $28,000, unit to loops - and, have posted their bill on line to prove it. There is no way I could have their cost replicated in my area, not when I am being offered the unit alone at $20,000. I know the price I am being offered is way higher than the other couple paid for their unit. I just hate getting reemed by contractors, it makes it so hard to trust any of them.

Sunny,
Cost of doing business varies.
in Mass for instance i understand unemployment and health insurance costs are tremendously higher than mine in MI. I can't speak for everywhere and would not presume too.
The going rate in your area is best determined by getting multiple estimates.
Check refrences, and don't discard highest bidder. If he is 10 times more in demand than his competition, there may be a reason worth paying for.
Gouging is in the eye of the beholder. I know I will not work again, the hours i worked last year, or miss another one of my kids' games without a bigger paycheck.
Keep us posted.
J

This is the best forum I have found online yet. The general public just dosent know that insurance rates fluctuate by state. The length of pipe per ton vary by whats underground & drilling cost vary by region. If you are a home owner do not go on a website to get a Geothermal quote! Most importantly do not go on a lead service website and charge a contractor $60 just so you can ask "how much?"

Recently I quoted a 2 stage, 3 ton system with wells, zoning, duct, kitchen hood, bath vents and thermostats for $25K in Atlanta GA and the home owner treated me like I was wearing a mask and holding a gun after recieving my bid (5th out of 5 bids, I was highest). I would have made $3500 in profit on the project which really isnt much considering all the overhead and advertising cost involved with this business. I guess some of my competitors bid the job less than my/the cost to install it. That is a frustrating thing about being a contractor. You can do a good job estimating and even installing but the other turkeys out there can really make your life difficult by underbidding (leaving something out of their estimate, not proposal) and doing shotty work or providing shotty management while doing the project to minimize their losses.

Too many home owners are on this and other sites like this complaining about "crooked" contractors that did bad work but 99% of the time they picked the low bidder. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. People in the construction & Geothermal industry dont magically produce something for 50% less than everybody else out there inorder to do the job for less. The high bidder has either 1.included everything you asked for and is willing to go the extra mile. 2. maybe too busy at the moment to really need the work. 3. made an estimating error to the high end. Remember the high bidder wants the work too. He will not intentionally bid to be the high bidder, that is wasting his time. Every project/estimate is a prototype. Your low bidder could be 1. unfamiliar with what he is doing. 2. desperate for the work 3. planning on cutting corners to "make it happen". 4. made a mistake and forgot to include something he needed to. (Have you ever typed 55 instead of $550????? 5. or they may be a smaller company just looking to get their foot in the market which may be a legitimate reason to be low but certianly not the lowest!

Just think about these things from a Geothermal Contractors perspective who has a modest home and family as well. We arent ripping you off. The cable company, Burger Joint, Gas Stations, Soda Companies, Health Insuance Companies, Lawyers, your boss & pretty much everything else you purchase without blinking an eye is.

Hi Welcome to the forums.

Great post.

In any business, losing a bid can be frustrating. I agree with some of what you have listed, but not everything. It's best to look at each situation individually rather than make generalizations.

Sometimes a higher price gets you more, and sometimes it does not. Our geothermal quotes ranged from $25,000 to $39,000 for the same equipment and installation. After getting everything in writing, and after checking references, etc., we were comfortable going with the lowest bidder. The installer did a great job for us. He also had more geothermal experience than most of the other installers. The installer quoting $39,000 was toward the bottom of the experience list. The installer with the most experience quoted about $32,000.

To help protect the consumer - If the contractor doesn't volunteer detailed information on the quote, it is up to the consumer to demand it before agreeing to have the work done. This allows the consumer to compare the work being quoted by various installers and helps minimize misunderstandings with the chosen contractor when work has begun. I requested that more details be put into our quotes before committing to a particular installer. Checking references is also extremely important. There is a lot for consumers to learn about geothermal so that they can make an informed decision about choosing an installer. I found geothermal forums shortly after our install, so I wasn't able to gain knowledge from this source. However, after 6 quotes I learned enough information about geothermal and the installers to make an informed decision.  Get lots of quotes too, even from different installers of the same brand of equipment.

I totally agree with you that this is a good forum. :-)

> Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes: 4 ton heat pump: $3,690

Using the figures above, I get < $6K for a retrofit of a geothermal heat pump where adequate ducts and open loop groundwater supply and drain are already available.

.....

Posted By jonr on 25 May 2010 10:10 AM
> Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes: 4 ton heat pump: $3,690

Using the figures above, I get < $6K for a retrofit of a geothermal heat pump where adequate ducts and open loop groundwater supply and drain are already available.

Having done a successful (so far) DIY install, I will just say that I was shocked when I added up the cost of all the "incidental" fittings, pipe, valves, etc. Granted I wasted some money not knowing exactly what I was doing and going beyond the typical install in terms of monitoring equipment and controls, but I'd say when all was said and done I had nearly as much money in stuff other than the heat pump and ground loop pipe. It is amazing how a $10 valve here or a $5 tee fitting there will add up!

It went well 4 years ago.  Thanks for asking.

Posted By jonr on 25 May 2010 10:10 AM
> Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes: 4 ton heat pump: $3,690

Using the figures above, I get < $6K for a retrofit of a geothermal heat pump where adequate ducts and open loop groundwater supply and drain are already available.

let us know how it goes after your first install.

> let us know how it goes after your first install.

A typical response when one tries to review pricing breakdown with an installer?

Posted By jonr on 25 May 2010 10:10 AM
> Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes: 4 ton heat pump: $3,690

Using the figures above, I get < $6K for a retrofit of a geothermal heat pump where adequate ducts and open loop groundwater supply and drain are already available.

There are several items missing here.

1.  there is not a water to freon heat exchanger.  These are not built into a DX heat pump.

2.  there is not a freon to air hear exchanger or blower.  These also are not built into a DX heat pump.

tscat007,

"We arent ripping you off. The cable company, Burger Joint, Gas Stations, Soda Companies, Health Insuance Companies, Lawyers, your boss & pretty much everything else you purchase without blinking an eye is." This is not a fair statement (but for my boss), in my opinion. Are you saying everyone I buy from is ripping me off, except for geothermal contractors?

Regards,

Masoud

Posted By geodean on 26 May 2010 01:40 PM

There are several items missing here.

Stone Soup?

Posted By tscat007 on 25 May 2010 12:45 AM

Too many home owners are on this and other sites like this complaining about "crooked" contractors that did bad work but 99% of the time they picked the low bidder. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. People in the construction & Geothermal industry don't magically produce something for 50% less than everybody else out there in order to do the job for less. The high bidder has either 1.included everything you asked for and is willing to go the extra mile. 2. maybe too busy at the moment to really need the work. 3. made an estimating error to the high end. Remember the high bidder wants the work too. He will not intentionally bid to be the high bidder, that is wasting his time. Every project/estimate is a prototype. Your low bidder could be 1. unfamiliar with what he is doing. 2. desperate for the work 3. planning on cutting corners to "make it happen". 4. made a mistake and forgot to include something he needed to. (Have you ever typed 55 instead of $550????? 5. or they may be a smaller company just looking to get their foot in the market which may be a legitimate reason to be low but certainly not the lowest!

Just think about these things from a Geothermal Contractors perspective who has a modest home and family as well. We aren't ripping you off. The cable company, Burger Joint, Gas Stations, Soda Companies, Health Insurance Companies, Lawyers, your boss & pretty much everything else you purchase without blinking an eye is.

Not necessarily, when I had driveway cement work done, I picked the middle bid out of a three contractor quotes. For my Geothermal system replacement system, I picked the highest bidder out of three quote, but admittedly financing restrictions forced me to pick him. If I had the cash on hand to pay for a system, I most likely would have picked the middle bidder again. 

The other companies you mentioned that are "ripping you off" really are not good examples, but your right, people get ripped off every day and they smile walking out the door.  Take HDMI cables sold at stores like Best Buy, $110 for a 1 meter gold plated cable, you can get a 1 meter HDMI cable of equal quality from an online website for about 5 bucks and don't start me on the "Monster cables" when any cheap banana cable will just as well for the typical consumer stereo system. Anyway my point it they are paying markup of over 2000% and don't blink an eye, where they are crying about spending an extra 5 or 10% on a geothermal install.