Wow free exchange of thougts as long as they agree with you, nice


BTW the Manufacture in MA we were a distributor for them

and yes there are leaks more likely from where they are brazed

but glad to see the 2 o f you jump right down my throat shows what you realy are right from the start

I read the above document and see nothing about banning DX systems.

I did read this on page 12...sounds like an approved system to me.

<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; mso-layout-grid-align:none; punctuation-wrap:simple; text-autospace:none; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> <!--[if gte mso 10]> 2. DX wells

 

If copper tubing is used for DX applications, all below grade copper connections shall be brazed.  Prior to installation MassDEP approval is required for any tubing material other than copper that is used in a DX well.  As of the release date of these guidelines, 780 CMR 71.00 does not specifically address DX wells; however, future updates to those regulations may include DX wells.

you realize that know where in there does it ban DX
In fact it lays out guidlines and regulations for propper installs
One thing I found interesting and it kinda makes sense is guys that are trained in water source shall not
be treated as being sufficiantly trained for dx and visa versa

I know in September you had to get a permit to do DX and they were not issuing any more

so like I said I will call and get the answer straight from them

I will admit if I am wrong but can change the way you treat others who dont agree with you?

I will apologize for being harsh
but lets be carefull about opinions being stated like facts
the fact is every system can fail
this is made much more likely if not installed properly
the fact that it MIGHT eventualy need replacement in 50-100 years
is in my opinion not a reason to trash a realy good system
and the fact is if a microbial developes the abiliaty to digest plastic ( will eventualy happen ) we will learn nothing is forever

so when whatever you use for pipe copper or plastic fails what would you rather have it leak??

 

Freon or and water and anti freeze

 

when we were a distributor for that brand of DX we had many discussions about the day coming when....

having installed both I can tell you dx can get higher coil temperature

And open loos are just way too much work

My opinion is that closed loops are the best

The only other thing I have to say about dx  systems is that the company that makes then in FLA caused more problems for us than they solved because their tech department didn't know how the equipment worked

 

no leak is good and both involve digging it up
I have had similiar issues with tech support ( or lack there of )
If you are asking what I would want spilled next to my well my answer would be refrigerent as it would not enter the well but evaporate out of the ground . but its like asking what would you rather eat cow dung or horse . Ill take no leaks
and either leak would require a huge repair
PS the worst thing in refrigerent r-22 is chlorine which is very bad but doesnt stop half the country from swimming in it daily , cant say the same for anti freeze .

so you alcohol and look for the drunk worms

Another quote from that document.

8.0 GSHP System Requirements 8.1 Refrigerants, Plasticizers, Antifreeze, Lubricating Oils, and Corrosion Inhibitors The use of refrigerants, antifreeze chemicals, and lubricating oils is prohibited in water that is returned to the subsurface via open-loop GSHP systems. The use of plasticizers in grout used in well construction is prohibited for open-loop GSHP wells. Following are the only currently MassDEP approved refrigerants, plasticizers, antifreeze, lubricating oils, and corrosion inhibitors that are allowed for closed-loop GSHP wells. Propylene glycol is an acceptable antifreeze for a closed-loop system. All other antifreeze chemicals must be approved by MassDEP prior to use. Food grade lubricating oils are acceptable for closed-loop and DX wells. DX wells may also use polyol ester as a lubricant. All other lubricating chemicals or oils must be approved by MassDEP prior to use. R-22 refrigerant and its EPA recommended substitutes R-407C and R-410A are acceptable for use in DX systems. All other refrigerants must be approved by MassDEP prior to use.

What is it about the water source industry that they can't acknowledge DX as a viable option for geothermal? Just because the loop is pre-engineered and nullifies the need of IGSHPA doesn't mean they should just shoot it down.

DX has virtually no market share in comparison to water source. Water source is a very viable, proven, working option. It definitely has its place in the market. DX is just as viable and certainly has its place, too. DX doesn't do the large commercial jobs. It doesn't do pump and dump, or open loop. It doesn't require tons of training and experience just to figure out the loop. Instead, it requires knowledge of refrigerant and refrigerant systems. It requires BASIC HVAC skills (brazing, evacuation, pressure testing, etc.), not fusing, pumping, pipe sizing, pump sizing, etc. It's a great fit to a normal HVAC company that can do an accurate Manual J load calculation. Compared to other closed loop systems, it's more efficient and has less maintenance.

Even after all the benefits of DX, IGSHPA, Geoexchange, GSHPC, all thumb their noses at it. The CGC in Canada is finally giving ear to it and recognizing it as the viable option it is.

If a water source proponent has something against DX, so be it. But please substantiate your claims first. Don't just spew propaganda and un-proven rumors. As a colleague of mine once replied to the leak rumors, "Who and Where?" EarthLinked has no loops that have experience a loop failure in over 20 years due to corrosion. That's because it typically (95% of the time) isn't in any kind of corrosive environment. And if it were, the CPS is employed.

Well, enough...time to get off the soap box again.

My opinion is the dx manufacturers are not supporting the installers between knowing how the equipment works or defending the systems they are making

But in 20 years have dx systems leaked yes

but this is where in all ends bad installers and I don't know about you guys but right now because so many not a clue guys are trying to get into this I am on jobs every day someone started and we have to start again the right way

so in MA there is no license for most residential work and if they started with the geothermal

The big thing with dx is someone hears freon in the ground leaking and they think the ozone is going away tomorrow

I am a sales rep of EarthLinked Geothermal heat pumps. We are the first line of tech support to the dealers. In MA, it is Mel Hensch. He is the first line of tech support for the dealers there. If they are not contacting him first, it is their own fault.

Personally, I have experienced GREAT help from EarthLinked on their product support. Typically, though, they leave it first to the sales reps. It has absolutely NOT been my experience that they don't support their dealers in knowing how the system works, or defending the system. Obviously, you're out of this loop, so don't talk about something you are not privy to.

Geo Fan, if you have tech support issues, chew out your sales rep. If nothing else, ask me.

Time to be sarcastic...still trying to figure out which font means sarcastic...

I'm sure Waterfurnace offers 100% support, every time, to every dealer. I'm sure all Waterfurnace owners have never had loops leak. I'm sure they (or Climatemaster, or Hydron Module, Geofurnace, Hydra-Delta, FHP, Econar, Comfort-Aire, and any other water source manufacturer) have NEVER experienced a loop failure. Not ever. Because if they did, it CERTAINLY would be proof positive to shut down all installs, and ban them in all states from being sold. It would be proof that water loops will definitely eventually leak and contaminate ground water with toxic methanol--especially because ALL (I'm sure) water source systems use methanol.

I've never read or heard of any HACK installers of water source systems, either. They ALWAYS follow manufacturer's recommendations (even in our school district pandora's box) in all of their installations and designs. I've never heard of anybody short-looping a system just to cut the cost and get the system sold, so they can completely RAPE the customer.

I'm sure Dewayne, Geo Fan, Engineer, Joe, Dan CGD, and even you, All Energy Systems, have never seen things like this with water source. Otherwise it really would mean that water source is not viable; not proven; not allowed by law. (All Indians walk in single file...at least the one I saw did...)

I agree with you it's all in the installer

 

BTW Mel is most of the problem

i sell commercial refrigerators and i wont sell a unit with a bristol compressor in them they wont last. i have had a/c compressors put in made by bristol i was sorry every time. i llook for units with copeland in them and never a problem. byt the way i was looking at my sears fridge and the compressor was made in malasia and it is 15 yeears old and never a problem so there are good things out there i just prefer copeland.

bob

I cant speak for ecr 1 but ecr part 2 uses copeland

I grew up in New England and standard, or at least widespread, was to use copper for main water line into house. Those lines are buried. I've never heard of problems with these lines corroding

because of changing them the towns atleast in my area are all plastic

copper still used in many areas in ct
I might add even non acidic water will wear on copper when its fast moving
lubricated refrigerent doesnt .Also the copper used for refrigerent is much thicker then pipeing used for water mains
So all those water mains using thinner copper moving a more abrassive material for 50 plus years does serve a good testamonial