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Geothermal versus Acadia Heat Pump
Last Post 21 Mar 2011 11:11 PM by pissdoff. 133 Replies. |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 02 Mar 2009 11:58 AM |
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A geothermal heat pump has a few ratings and capacities tested with it.
Typically, a water source, closed loop unit has ratings of EWT~50 deg. (no load) and EWT~30-32 deg. (full load)
An EarthLinked DX unit has ratings of no load and full load.
Let's take an example from Waterfurnace Envision series, 4 ton. It seems to be consensus here that the WF Envision ranks at top of the line.
From the tables listed in their specification literature, I see on page 25 that the 4 ton has the following data:
EWT= 50 deg. F. (no-load), GPM = 12, COP = 4.31
EWT= 30 deg. F. (full load), GPM = 12, COP = 3.56
When I say no load/full load, I mean the temp of the loop with virtually no load on the building (spring and fall) or with full load, it won't dip below the 30...
From the EarthLinked manual (and I'm still working on them to post this on their site to anyone who wishes to view it...) a 4 ton has the following data:
Earth Temp = 50 deg.
no load, COP = 5.0
full load, COP = 4.2 - 4.5, depending on vertical or horizontal.
Full load with the Earthlinked is 90% run time, with supplemental heat to give it at least 10% off/recovery time.
The 20%-30% more efficient statement is rounded numbers, based on average differences. Obviously not everyone is going to install the WF Envision series--or the CM tranquility, either. I'm just showing one example backing up my statement. Dewayne has an EarthLinked manual, though it may not be the most recent, and should be able to verify my numbers. Geo Fan or Dale Walker should also be able to. Maybe Joe has a manual, too.
I looked at the single speed on WF, not the ECM. The ECM shows a little higher COPs than the single speed. However, it still is not as efficient as the EarthLinked. I guess I need to change my numbers to 10%-35% more efficient. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 02 Mar 2009 12:22 PM |
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All energy systems,
I'd really like to address the issue of Hacks in the industry, and installing everything according to the manufacturer's recommendations.
With an EarthLinked system, the air coil must be modified correctly. A TXV MUST be removed, and the distributor modified. If some bonehead Hack installer doesn't pay attention at training, and refuses to learn how to install ANY system, they should be cut off from installing that system. It doesn't matter if it's EarthLinked, Waterfurnace, Climatemaster, Hydron Module, Nordic, Earthsource Energy, FHP, or any other geothermal. If they don't install to manufacturer's recommendations, they will give geo a bad name.
If leaks occur at brazed joints in the ground, you should learn how to braze properly. Brazed joints above ground don't leak when done properly, either. Maybe you should stick with fusion.
I would really appreciate not having to re-state facts to hacks who like to spread lies and rumors of a system they refuse to install correctly, or even understand. BTW, how many EarthLinked system do you claim to have installed? And what was the result of that one? |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 02 Mar 2009 12:44 PM |
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Clark, the COP numbers for the WF Envision models go higher if it's purchased with an ECM, not a PSC motor. I.e., COP improves from 4.31 to 4.56 at 50 °F (p. 32).
Also, I believe this 4.56 value is 'fully loaded.' I.e., it's at a significant Heat Extraction rate of 37.7 KBTU/hr (accomplished by pumping 50° water at 12 gpm through the coax heat exchanger, and pushing 70° return air through the evap coil at 1500 cfm).
Thus, unless I'm missing something, on a performance basis, I don't see significant performance difference between a 4 ton WF Envision unit vs. the same capacity Earthlinked DX unit (4.56 vs 4.5, which is a 'noise level' only difference), on an apples-to-apples basis (i.e., ECM motors, whichever orientation provides higher performance for the DX unit, no desuperheaters running, etc.).
I'm not debating which technology is better. In fact, a DX technology unit requiring a lot less digging, to get the same performance as a geo unit requiring 1000s of feet of slinky or a big vertical drilling rig, makes it possible for many customers here in 'suburbia' with 'postage stamp' size lots to enjoy the benefits of something other than conventional A/C. But on a performance basis, at least comparing to WF's current technology offering, I don't see the difference.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 02 Mar 2009 01:42 PM |
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It's becoming apparent that I'm trying to compare an apples to oranges situation, so bear with me...
When I say 'fully loaded', I mean a 'fully loaded' house. A 'fully loaded' house means the house has its extreme/design temp or lower load occurring. Perhaps someone has a better term for this...maybe I should say, "when the house is at design temp".
When at design temp, or lower, a closed loop temp. will drop from 50 deg. here in my neck of the woods during the winter. In order to install a loop that will maintain 50 deg. here, you'd have to install a phenomenally larger loop than is feasible. Many loop designs figure on getting down to the 40 deg. range, some to the 35 deg. range, some down to the 30 deg. range. Basically, if you can maintain the 50 deg. EWT in design temp conditions, then you won't be in 50 deg. earth with a closed water loop. I used temps. from my area of 50 deg. earth.
Comparatively speaking, the DX loops will only see the low COP of 4.2-4.5 when they're at design conditions (more accurately, when they reach balance point), or 90% run time. EWTs may only reach the 30-35 deg. range if under the same type of conditions. Not sure I'm being clear on what it is I'm trying to convey.
When a home's load is 35,000 BTUh with +10 deg. outdoor temp, the loop temp may be 40. However, as the home's load increases, the run time of the heat pump will increase, and will invariably decrease the temp of the loop.The entire time the heat pump is running, it is, as you say, getting a full-load out of the loop water at whatever temp it is.
If we looked at it as a temperature comparison, then... With the EWT=50, and earth temp=50, both systems have 4.31 and 5.0 COPs, respectively. If EWT = 30, and earth temp=30, then they have COPs of 3.56 and 4.5, respectively. Again, this is an apples to oranges comparison, because the earth temp under 90% run time with DX doesn't necessarily equal 30. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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All Energy Systems
New Member
Posts:32
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| 02 Mar 2009 02:29 PM |
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Posted By tuffluckdriller on 03/02/2009 1:42 PM
It's becoming apparent that I'm trying to compare an apples to oranges situation, so bear with me...
When I say 'fully loaded', I mean a 'fully loaded' house. A 'fully loaded' house means the house has its extreme/design temp or lower load occurring. Perhaps someone has a better term for this...maybe I should say, "when the house is at design temp".
When at design temp, or lower, a closed loop temp. will drop from 50 deg. here in my neck of the woods during the winter. In order to install a loop that will maintain 50 deg. here, you'd have to install a phenomenally larger loop than is feasible. Many loop designs figure on getting down to the 40 deg. range, some to the 35 deg. range, some down to the 30 deg. range. Basically, if you can maintain the 50 deg. EWT in design temp conditions, then you won't be in 50 deg. earth with a closed water loop. I used temps. from my area of 50 deg. earth.
Comparatively speaking, the DX loops will only see the low COP of 4.2-4.5 when they're at design conditions (more accurately, when they reach balance point), or 90% run time. EWTs may only reach the 30-35 deg. range if under the same type of conditions. Not sure I'm being clear on what it is I'm trying to convey.
When a home's load is 35,000 BTUh with +10 deg. outdoor temp, the loop temp may be 40. However, as the home's load increases, the run time of the heat pump will increase, and will invariably decrease the temp of the loop.The entire time the heat pump is running, it is, as you say, getting a full-load out of the loop water at whatever temp it is.
If we looked at it as a temperature comparison, then... With the EWT=50, and earth temp=50, both systems have 4.31 and 5.0 COPs, respectively. If EWT = 30, and earth temp=30, then they have COPs of 3.56 and 4.5, respectively. Again, this is an apples to oranges comparison, because the earth temp under 90% run time with DX doesn't necessarily equal 30. first what is your zip because even in the NE we do't go below 54 and at that temp it still works. It seems like maybe picking worst case and being overly hopefull too |
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| Bill Denham<br>owner<br>All Energy Systems<br>geo/solar/wind/cogeneration |
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All Energy Systems
New Member
Posts:32
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| 02 Mar 2009 02:37 PM |
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Posted By tuffluckdriller on 03/02/2009 12:22 PM
All energy systems,
I'd really like to address the issue of Hacks in the industry, and installing everything according to the manufacturer's recommendations.
With an EarthLinked system, the air coil must be modified correctly. A TXV MUST be removed, and the distributor modified. If some bonehead Hack installer doesn't pay attention at training, and refuses to learn how to install ANY system, they should be cut off from installing that system. It doesn't matter if it's EarthLinked, Waterfurnace, Climatemaster, Hydron Module, Nordic, Earthsource Energy, FHP, or any other geothermal. If they don't install to manufacturer's recommendations, they will give geo a bad name.
If leaks occur at brazed joints in the ground, you should learn how to braze properly. Brazed joints above ground don't leak when done properly, either. Maybe you should stick with fusion.
I would really appreciate not having to re-state facts to hacks who like to spread lies and rumors of a system they refuse to install correctly, or even understand. BTW, how many EarthLinked system do you claim to have installed? And what was the result of that one? Could not agree with you more This is not a DYI job nor is it for the unexpirenced and do the manual j and take a course first Last Friday I took off 5 fusion fitting that were done wrong, even that is not for the inexpirenced |
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| Bill Denham<br>owner<br>All Energy Systems<br>geo/solar/wind/cogeneration |
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emjayef
New Member
Posts:14
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| 02 Mar 2009 07:15 PM |
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Okay, since I sort of ran this thread off-track by bringing up the DX system, I will try to put it back on. There seems to be quite a few knowledgeable people posting here and I would like to post a question for you. Considering installation costs, operating costs, efficiencies, warranties, life expectancies, payback periods, and whatever other comparison could be made between Geo and Acadia, which system would you recommend for a new installation in NW Ohio? After getting a near $500 electric bill last month for an 1800 sq. ft. home using an air-to-air heat pump set at 68 degrees, I would like to make the correct decision this time around for my new digs.
Hopefully this will get the thread back on track. Thanks for all your input... |
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All Energy Systems
New Member
Posts:32
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| 02 Mar 2009 07:22 PM |
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sorry we got lost
go geothermal what ever you decide dx or water to water
stay away from acadia
acadia 14 seer 3 ton and 4 only
dealer costs are if I remember are about $12K and $14K
But if you get 5 years you will be lucky and all that time you will have tecks living at your house.
sorry again for getting of track |
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| Bill Denham<br>owner<br>All Energy Systems<br>geo/solar/wind/cogeneration |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 02 Mar 2009 10:46 PM |
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Posted By emjayef on 03/02/2009 7:15 PM
Okay, since I sort of ran this thread off-track by bringing up the DX system, I will try to put it back on. There seems to be quite a few knowledgeable people posting here and I would like to post a question for you. Considering installation costs, operating costs, efficiencies, warranties, life expectancies, payback periods, and whatever other comparison could be made between Geo and Acadia, which system would you recommend for a new installation in NW Ohio? After getting a near $500 electric bill last month for an 1800 sq. ft. home using an air-to-air heat pump set at 68 degrees, I would like to make the correct decision this time around for my new digs.
Auxiliary heat, (electric strips, right?) undoubtedly drove up your power bill. In one sense it's not fair to blame the air-to-air heat pump because the common ones can't run at temps below about 25°F. If you were told, or expected, the heat pump to give you less expensive heat regardless of outdoor temp, well, you were misled or mistaken. Your frustration, and focus, needs to be directed toward the heating source and performance at temps below 25°, which is exactly what you are doing by your exploring Acadia vs geo. I just looked at the Acadia technical data sheet. Have you done so yet? If not you need to. You will see that they spec their system to run in mode M4 at temps below 17°. And what is mode M4? Quote from their tech sheet, "2 Cylinder Primary & booster compressors w/ 1st stage auxiliary heat." Also there is this note, "* Outdoor temperature conditions 10 °F, 0 °F, -15 °F do not reflect indoor air delivery temperature increases or efficiency penalties associated when using recommended 1st stage resistive heating elements. The approximate increase in delivery air with staged heat is 15 °F." Note the words "efficiency penalties." Below 17° Hallowell plans for you to use auxiliary heat. That's what you want to get away from isn't it? I'm sure you're aware from my postings that I have a Daikin heat pump system. There are two major differences with it compared to the Acadia. First, it has one variable speed compressor, not multiple compressors. It is continuously variable in the amount of refrigerant it pumps around the system, not 1, 2, or 3, set quantities. The second big difference is there is no electric strip auxiliary heat built into the system. Daikin expects, and so far my experience substantiates it, the heat pump to put out heat down to 10°F and colder. Based on my experience and research, if you can afford it and have the ground to accommodate it, go with geo source. If you want to look at an alternative look at Daikin VRV-S air-to-air heat pump.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 02 Mar 2009 11:34 PM |
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I'd recommend geo especially because of the recent tax credit changes. You can get 30% tax credit up to $1,500 for a qualified air source heat pump. For qualified (energy star rated) you'll get 30% without a cap. That uncapped 30% should shorten your payback with geo, too. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 03 Mar 2009 08:51 AM |
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NW Ohio is where I hail from originally, and I sure wouldn't have found 10* or 0* systems (without back up) adequate. I'm likely not far from you and have commented that we should "watch air source" but I'm still only installing them in rare cases (usually due to property or budget restrictions) or where duct work is not available and load doesn't offer pay back for geo.
Frankly around here and your area, it is what you get to save some money if you can't get geo.
The tax credits that Clark mentioned make that even more true.
Good luck,
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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emjayef
New Member
Posts:14
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| 03 Mar 2009 05:33 PM |
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Your replies pretty much agree with my way of thinking. I have looked at the Acadia technical data sheet as well as the white paper info. After reading it, I lost my enthusiasm for it and that's how I ended up here. Like I said before, I'm not a heating expert, just a homeowner looking to put in a new system. I had high hopes when I first heard of the Acadia, but they've pretty well been dashed since then.
As for going with either DX or water-source geo, I would like to trust the DX system enough to go with it, but I have too many concerns about it, so I will probably go with the water-source geo. There are a lot of them in use around here and everybody I've talked to about them are very satisfied. And the tax credit certainly takes some of the pain out of it.
Thanks to all of you for your input. |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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| 03 Mar 2009 06:04 PM |
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That's a shame that you have concerns about DX. Within 3 hours of you in Warsaw, Indiana is Mike Dilling The distributor of Earthlinked for your area, I think. he is at *heawarsaw* com.
Along with Clark, He is one of the most knowledgeable Individual I know for DX, he also has a long history with water source as well. He has hundreds and hundreds of DX systems installed. And has used Earthlinked to replace other DX manufactures equipment. Earthlinked is a fantastic designed piece of equipment, as for all the reasons in Clark's description. |
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emjayef
New Member
Posts:14
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| 03 Mar 2009 07:09 PM |
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This is one of my concerns, that he is 3 hours away. I checked with him about a year ago and he basically told me there were no installers in my area. He said they were working on getting someone, but it hadn't happened yet. As far as I know, it still hasn't happened. I had a gentleman from Pennsylvania say that he would come over and install one for me, but I have to be realistic about it, too. What if I need repairs? How many dealers or installers are going to want to drive 3 hours or more to get here, and where does that leave me?
I will contact Mike Dilling again and see if he has someone over here to do the job. Even then, if the person is relatively new, I would be hesitant to go with him. There's nothing like experience in my book.
Thanks for your thoughts. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 03 Mar 2009 10:30 PM |
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Where in NW ohio are you? |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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emjayef
New Member
Posts:14
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| 05 Mar 2009 07:21 PM |
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I went online today and found that there is now an ECR dealer in Swanton, OH which is about 50 miles northwest of me. That's the closest I've found so far. I will contact him and see what he can do for me. Hopefully we will be able to come up with a plan I can live with. I would really like to install the DX system because it's probably the most efficient available. But whether it has proven itself as far as reliability goes, remains to be seen. I'm still very concerned about the possible mechanical and chemical effects on the in-ground copper tubing. In fact, that's probably my main concern about the entire system.
One more question, however. Why is it that most newer heat pumps, both geo and air, force you to have power on the backup resistance elements in order to operate them? One of the complaints I've heard about them is that people use them to heat work shops or other areas that they don't keep up to normal temps unless they're using them. Then, when they raise the thermostat more than a couple of degrees, the backup heat comes on. Seems to me you would be able to disable the backup heat and let the heat pump run the temperature up. My old air/air heat pump allowed me to turn the breaker off to the resistance coils but the new ones don't. I'm sure they can be rewired to allow this, but that would probably void the warranty also. Can someone explain this?
Thanks again. |
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rcgnrcp
New Member
Posts:7
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| 05 Mar 2009 07:48 PM |
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I've just had a 3 ton Acadia installed in my home in downtown Toronto, Ontario. Initially they wanted to use electric resistance b/u heat and required a 125 amp breaker to do so. Since I had a Rinnai tankless natural gas hot water heater installed at the same time, for an extra $1,300 (Canadian) they put a secondary heat exchanger in using the Rinnai and a heat exchanger to the domestic hot water supply with a mixing valve to control domestic supply temperature. The whole thing looks like a work of art.
With my system, the backup heat will not come on unless the system is manually placed in emergency mode, regardless of what the thermostat calls for. Even when "+2" is flashing on the thermostat indicating stage 3 or backup, only stage 2 heat is actually on. There is a separate circulating pump inside the air handling unit that comes on if the system is placed in emergency mode. At the moment the circulating pump for the domestic supply hot water comes on when stage 3 is called for, but the loops heats to 140 F and then stops because the loop to the furnace is not circulating. For some reason the electric resistance heat is not set up this way, but I'll bet it could be if you ask the right people at Hallowell, or whichever manufacturer you are using.
This system cost me about $22,000 Canadian, which today would be about $17,085 U.S. A geothermal system would have cost me over $40,000 Canadian. The extra cost simply would not have resulted in savings over the life of the system.
Incidentally, the unit comes with a 5 year parts and labour warranty, and a 10 year parts warranty. The Rinnai is 10 years P&L.
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 06 Mar 2009 12:17 AM |
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Posted By emjayef on 03/05/2009 7:21 PM
One more question, however. Why is it that most newer heat pumps, both geo and air, force you to have power on the backup resistance elements in order to operate them?
The aux heat is controlled with the tstat. Get the right tsat and you can do what you are looking to do. We use Climatouch brand.
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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emjayef
New Member
Posts:14
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| 06 Mar 2009 11:05 AM |
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I understand that, but wouldn't that also eliminate the backup heat during normal automatic operation? Would it be better to set it up as a zone system where one tstat would operate without the backup heat and the other with? Thanks. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 06 Mar 2009 11:25 AM |
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Not sure about the zone systems. I just know that the Climatouch gives you a lot of control over the aux heat. |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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