Go with what you feel the best wit......it's your money and your system.

If we here have caused folks to fear an aux. coil, we have done a dis-service to the ASHP and GSHP industry.

Totally agree. Supplemental heat seems to be GREATLY misunderstood here. It sure seems that you, Joe, have done a great job explaining the need and use of it, but it does seem apparent that many choose not to understand its purpose.

Not sure we'll convince them, though...what more could you say to explain how much better it is to have that supplemental heat than it is to oversize the system?

emjay,
the beauty of the tax credit is that you don't have to settle for airsource due to economic reasons, you get to have ground source at airsource prices.
J

I don't mean to sound like I'm condemning air source heat pumps with resistance back-up heat, I'm simply saying that in NW Ohio, I feel they are borderline as far as efficiency is concerned especially when there's something better to be had. I say this after using air source for 35 years. At the time I put it in, it was considered new but very promising technology. To be honest, if I would have based my opinions on the first 10 years of using air-source, I would have a gas furnace right now. But the reliability of air-source has come a long way since those days. If I lived further south, where there are fewer days that require backup heat, I wouldn't hesitate to use air source. But based on my experience with the product in this area of the country, I feel it's borderline and if you can afford to do it, why not go with the more efficient technology? Thanks to you all for your input.

emjay,
back-up heat will likely be employed by your GSHP as well, but less often.
technology has improved on both systems...that's the good news. Tax credit make GSHP about as affordable...that's the great news.
J

This thread will probably be put to bed here shortly since this issue has been pretty well beat up. Maybe I'll resurrect it a year from now to report how my Daikin system has worked out next winter! I kind of wish I would have gone with the DX system, especially now with the tax credit. Actually, tuffluck would have been the distributor from whom my HVAC nephew would have gotten the equipment and training. He also would have had to drill the wells for me since nobody close by has the small drilling rig that's used for DX wells. It would have been a 500 mile trip for him, each way. I also had GSHP pretty well coupled to radiant in my mind, and as we know, radiant adds $$ to the system. So all things considered, like $$, I opted to go with the Daikin.

The only reason I went with ASHP at all is because of the availability of the Daikin VRV-S, and because according to historical data the temp around here is below 20°F only about 5% of the heating season. I never considered the normal range of heat pumps from Carrier, Lennox, and others. By using the crawl space as the supply plenum I expect to have a quasi-radiant heated floor. So my expectation is that I will have a heating/cooling system that will give me, maybe at an 80% compartive level, the benefits of GSHP and radiant at a lower capital cost. We'll see.

I'm glad to see the comments about not expecting a GSHP system to provide, on its own, 100% of the heating load down to Manual J design temp. When I obtained and looked at the historical temp data for SW Idaho I was somewhat surprised to see that less than 20% of the hourly readings were below freezing. The Manual J design temp here is 9°F. Having a GSHP supply 100% of the heat at design temp is the same as buying a 10 ton dump truck for hauling when 90% of the loads will be 6 tons or less. You're better off to buy a smaller truck, and then for the few times you really need to haul 10 tons, renting additional trucks.

Just my 2 cents

I live in Maine and have had the Acadia since October 08, I have no other heat source for my home, which is a 1992 doublewide on a full basement.  The air handler was tapped into my existing ductwork, total cost was $12700, basement was not insulated until the end of January nor was any of the ductwork coming from the air handler, temp was kept at 72 until February, now a constant 69 without any problem, we were doing the cool down to 64 at night and back up to 72 in day.  Basement and home are about 2300 square feet, no real heat to basement yet, I have the 3 ton unit.  I did have a few problems after the initial install that were quickly solved, no problems since.  Here is a breakdown on my electric usage....
October 187  $11 more then a year ago
November 313 $192 more
December 322 $202 more
January  416 $271 more
February 336  $216 more
This comes to about $892 is what I have spent to heat my home this winter, compared to $2000 for last year using Oil.
In the month of January, most of the month was below 0 F, and several day were below -20.  Also,  my electric rate is about 15.5 cents.
Not sure where the info from above came from but the largest breaker I needed installed was 60 amp, plus all the other info about Hallowell and Nyle is old news???  Since been solved....
There you have it, all my info are facts from a very satisfied customer of the Acadia, what else can I say.

Lee 

Thanks Lee for some real results. My brother is looking at Hallowell Acadia vs Geo. He is shying away from geo since his 800' well cost $22K to drill. Does any one else have any experience with Acadia ASHP's .

Bob G.

Lee, good info.
Based on the glance of your job, you would have paid about the same for geo after a 30% credit that wasn't available to you then.
I hope it continues to workwell for you, but will continue to recommend geo to similar situations.
j

Actually, I was very interested in the Geo way, but the best install was going to be $25000 (and this was a very good deal in this area), and even with a 30% discount, which was not avaluable, still would have been $17500!  and on top of that (this is what turned me off) I still would have needed another heat source once the temp got around 10 or 20F I don't see that being about the same...don't get me wrong..I am definitly a pro geo guy, in fact I think if we tapped into the area around old faithfull, we could supply the whole country with electricity from geo....but for an individual install....not affordable for the average guy like myself.....as far as promoting, my intention was not to sound like I was promoting the Acadia.  Because of some of the replies in this forum I felt some one should simply give a real life situation and experience from the perspective of a real Acadia owner...which is what I thought this thread was about.  Feel free to ask any questions about the Acadia (my experience)...just don't expect much about SEER, COP or any other mumbo jumbo like that  :-)

Lee

He needs to other prices we just had one done for 15,000

Hi Lee

when I saw your post the other day I had some questions right away

Being from Maine what town do you live in?

Are you associated with Arcidia?

I would be afraid of no units lasting a year when geothermal unit have been working 20+ years

Also operating cost are 3 times what Geothermal are

and Arcadia also has back up electric heat so I don't see the advantage there

Don't get me wrong I hope your unit lasts for ever but the customer I had called all the locals and they all said the techs lived at their house

Hi Bill,

I live in Hermon, just outside of Bangor...

I am not assosiated with Acadia at all...in fact I have not even been to their plant, even though I was invited to do so by my installer

Ok, I think you may have been the one claiming these units not lasting a year, first off, the basis of these units are just like all other ASHP (which also, to my understanding, last 20+ years) its not new technology, what it is, is a guy who believed there could be a more improved system and went with it..not much different then every thing else in our world...take whats already been done and make it better.  So, lets say it does not last a year, so I get a new one with another warrenty, so far my experice with this company tells me this is exactly what will happen. But, I think this will never be an issue anyhow.  Like I said, I did have a problem at first, seems some resistor thingy blew right out of itself, they came, they fixed and then it happened again...next thing I know, a truck shows up with 4 guys and a whole new unit...no problems since.

Opperating cost of geo...well, I don't know about that, what I do know is I have only paid $892 since October heating my home and that is with the back up electric heat you talk about, I also know that I would need another heat source once the temp got down to 20F, which kind thows out the better opperating cost for geo and I only paid half of what geo would have been.  I say if you got the cash, then go for the geo, I like the idea of using the earths own heat to produce energy, but I don't think the technology is quite cought up to the Acadia, I just wanted one thing that could heat and cool my house including the basement as I finish it.

I too hope this unit last a good long time, even $12700 is alot for me to have forked out...it took one day for the techs to install my unit, other then the few times they were here in the begining to fix my problem, I have not seen them......maybe I should feel negleted :-(

Lee

Not trying to be antagonistic, but a typical air source compressor lasts 10 - 15 years from our experience. This seems to be due to the fact that they operate in harsher conditions.

Also, a properly sized geothermal system would use its backup heat minimally--to the tune of far less than an air source heat pump. Probably would add $20-$100 per year in operation costs (depending on lots of different things on each individual situation).

I echo Joe in saying that I'm glad you have a functioning system that's saving you money compared to fossil fuels. Geothermal would have been more efficient all around, and most likely would have had a payback. If something has a payback, that means it pays for itself and costs you less than the option you took. You are definitely saving some money with your Acadia vs. fossil fuel. It is a better option than fossil fuel, however, it's not as efficient or long lasting as geo. Keep us posted. I'm interested to know how well it does for you over time.

ok, so what I hear is a lot of coulda, woulda, shoulda, and probably's and a bunch of possible senarios and numbers and mumbo jumbo....what I added to this forum were real life numbers $12700 installed $892 so far to heat my home in Maine and a breakdown month to month cost...I think what would be GREAT, is to hear from other Acadia owners or even better someone that has the real life senario of installing the Geo to their home and can give the actual real numbers of what the cost and savings were, like installation cost and what changes in there electricity were...simple stuff really...I am just as curious as the next guy on this subject.

Lee

I have now had service techs in to fix the glitch in my Acadia system that was causing it to shut down. It was NOT the Acadia, it was a wiring mistake by the installation crew. I now have yet to cycle into auxiliary heat mode. The hydronic loop from my tankless hot water heater cost an extra $1300 Cdn. I cannot make any claims as to reliability, but the people I've dealt with say (and they are an experienced bunch) these are reliable units, and they're the only game in town as far a air source good to sub-zero temps. A word of warning, the installer needs to know what he or she is doing. Just like the original high efficiency furnaces, this is a new product that needs to be installed by someone who knows what they're doing. In the end, the person who designed my system was on holiday when it was installed, and he is the one who ultimately came back and fixed the install problem.

As for efficiency, if you go with the hydronic backup, with a condensing tankless unit, even on back up, the natural gas efficiency rating on the tankless is 98%. Yes, 98, not a misprint. That makes the unit very efficient even if the auxiliary heat kicks in. In Canada, the rebate on geothermal is now up to $7,000, but even after that discount geo would have cost me more than $33,000. Acadia cost me $23,000 with the tankless hot water heater and hydronic loop. No brainer, the geothermal would have had a payback beyond my life expectancy!

NOBODY is claiming geothermal isn't efficient. It is unmistakably more efficient than anything else out there, Acadia included. BUT even with discounts, the overall cost is very high, and many people don't want to have their property dug up (if they don't need wells) to install the loop. Great for new installs, but not so great for retrofits.

My sister has a dual geothermal system and spends next to nothing on heating and cooling, but she also discovered that if you set the thermostat back more than 2 degrees the savings are out the window as the electric resistance backup kicks in.

As for the crap about Brystol compressors... no company on the planet would be in business if their product never lasted more than a year. How stupid do you think we are? Every company makes the occasional lemon. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume this was your unfortunate experience. Brystol compressors are found in commercial and residential systems everywhere, just like Copeland etc. etc.

I'll eat crow if my system doesn't deliver. With a ten year warranty, I don't think I have to worry. I will let you know what the costs work out to be as my utility bills start coming in.

Most of our geo systems don't cost 30K, it's more like 20K which is why I shake my head when folks pay 20 grand for air source.
ASHP's do offer easier installation in urban installations or small lots which is why I've maintained they have their place.
True that I'll wreck your lawn, but most of my rural customers have the equipment to get sweat equity on the finish grade. We are seeing way more retro than new build work. We are also seeing the migration of ASHP installers to geo with the new tax credits (again in my area) as geo is getting harder to compete with.
Lee,
For the actual numbers, see my thread "year in review."
I'd like to see a similar-easily digestable- ASHP review. Perhaps someone has stumbled across one....
J

Joe,

I have looked at the "year in review" thread, I did not think to post my kilo usage, but my highest usage was in January at 2588....I am a simple man so I tried to keep it simple (this was my electric cost last year and this is my cost now), plus what it cost me to have my Acadia installed, seems that these are the easiest numbers for me to understand....with that thought, the guy who probably would have the closest temps to me was the one in WI.... I did not quite understand what it was costing him over before but, his kilo usage seemed way over the top, 4046 for Jan.??? I could be wrong, like I said I did not quite understand it.
I still would like to know about the install cost geo people are paying....and on the note of $20,000+ for an ASHP install, I believe the only reason for that price would be a whole house ductwork install or possibly a duel system which I believe would also drive up any geo install.  I am guessing...

Lee

The reason we suggest KW usage as our measure stick is due to different electric rates (would you believe that my neighbors, on one side, have a different electric company with no home heating discount, so I would pay 25% less?). We also ask for square footage of the homes to see what people accomplish with their KW's.
I presume you are referring to Brock as the "one from Wisconsin." If you look again, you'll notice he's doing more than heating his home with those KW's (such as melting the snow off his driveway and I believe heating a pool).
J