Yup, I should be more clear, that was heating our pool as well and some driveway snow melting. Our neighbors using natural gas with a similar sized house built 5 years ago, with no pool and no snow melting had a bill of $450 and they were happy with that, until they found out our bill was $300...

Lee your close to here?  I thought you were in Maine, any idea what your HDD were in that same period?

I also condition 4000 sq ft with no setback kept at 73F with 4 kids taking what seem like endless showers.

I feel like jumping in because we are discussing this with my in-laws right now. I admit I am telling them to go with an air source heat pump. I agree that in the long run geo would be less expensive, but they are planning on moving once their youngest goes to college, in 4 years. They wouldn't get the benefit from the geothermal in that time and as much as I think it would add value to the home, I don't think they would break even before they moved or make up the added value by increasing the cost of the home when it was sold. I do think they would save over a traditional furnace going with air source. They also would have to tear up their entire back yard to fit the field in, something they really don’t want to do.

I always believe in the right tool for the right job, I don't think anyone can make a blanket statement that any system is the best and only system that should ever be installed.

Hi,

The hydronic loop is run through a heat exchanger which is fed from the domestic hot water supply. One side of the heat exchanger is domestic hot water heated by a Rinnai tankless hot water heater, the other side of the heat exchanger is looped to a secondary coil inside the air handling unit of the Acadia. The Rinnai is rated as 84% efficient for heating water. There is a new unit on the market made by another company which is a wall-mounted condensing unit that is rated at 98% efficient for heating hot water. Either way, using the hydronic loop is less expensive than using the electric heat that is standard with the Acadia air handler.

The domestic hot water is heated to 140 degrees F. and goes into a thermostatic mixing valve to supply domestic hot water at a lower temperature. Another benefit of this system is the ability to shut off the hot water at usage point and turn it back on again without a blast of cold water before the tankless kicks in again.

Hallowell does offer this option, but you have to ask for it, and you have to have a hydronic person put together the manifold to provide the hydronic loop. Mine is quite a work of art. If you are interested I would be happy to provide you with photographs. Contact me at [email protected]

Propane is more expensive than natural gas. You should also know that there are several stages of electric heat boost with the air handling unit if you go with that option. With the hydronic loop, it is either on or off. To allow the booster compressor to activate, you would lower the loop temperature of the hydronic system so that it is not sufficient to heat the house by itself. (180,000 BTU's are available from my tankless unit, which would heat the house alone). I may, depending on how much I find the auxiliary heat comes on, lower my loop from 140 F to 125 or 130. This would allow the booster compressor of the Acadia to come on.

Robl

Brock,
I agree with you that payback should be an important consideration.
A good contractor with reliable operating cost software is going to be the best tool in their decision.
You may find that doing nothing makes the most sense for them if you do not believe market will show added value.
Generally I find pay back for air source to be about the same as earth source. If they truly believe they will be out in 4 years and the market hasn't turned significantly, the most economical thing to do may be to burn gas.
J

I'm quite surprised by some of the positive responses that are on this post about the Acadia Heat Pump. Let me give you my experience. I am not a basher and have no other reason to post other than to let you know my situation.

I was very excited to get off oil and begged and pleaded with my wife that this would be great for us and save us a ton a money in August 2008 when oil kept going up and up. Our set up was only 3 years old at the time so it was a very difficult proposition to get her on board. In fact, we were on a TV news show that appeared in the MA area about people considering alternatives to oil . I should also mention that this was for our 1000sq.ft. guest house and home office and not our main living quarters.

The following experience has been an expensive and extensive nightmare. First, I didn't qualify for any of the rebates available at that time because it turned that Hallowell had not received the proper codes for their products and that everything was under review still. This is in complete contradiction to what I had been informed and even the installer was quite surprised by that. These rebates at the time were quite generous and I had figured them out in the total cost and was quite disappointed by Hallowell and my own gullibility.

In a cool September of 2008, I immediately started getting large electric bills around $400. I was told that this is normal since we were not using oil and that we're still saving money. I was told to be patient and that the true savings would show up soon enough. October's bill was worse at $550. I called again and questioned it but was told that everything is at it should be. In November, the electric bill was $700+ and December even higher.

This is when I started to get very upset. I had already lost out on the extensive rebates and now this was costing me more than when oil was at its peak. The installer came by and noted that the compressors weren't on and got Hallowell on the phone to troubleshoot the problems. At first, Hallowell insisted that everything was fine. Only one tech realized that the included wiring instructions were written wrong and that the electric heat strips were the only thing working. I noted that I had been questioning this since the beginning and that Hallowell had worked with the installer from the beginning in setting up the entire system.

Of course, the next month's bill was enormous and dwarfed the other bills but was told to wait for the following month. Duane Hallowell himself had come to the house to check everything out and insisted all was fine now. He apologized for the inconvenience and said that he would reimburse me for the excessive bills. I informed him about the missed rebates and he said that unfortunately they had some delays in the process but "You know how slow the government agencies are..." I suggested that maybe he should make sure that his company doesn't tell people about the rebates that they're not qualified for since that leads to confusion for the consumer.

Duane asked for all of my electric bills for the last 2 years and my last 2 years of oil bills and for the heat calculations taken for the building and then he did his own heat calculations and assessment. After much patience and then 3-4 repeated calls, he never did make good on the reimbursement and I was told that he was busy and then I'd never hear from them.

Well the electric bills continued to stay up there and soon found out that the compressors had failed and this was after a month of being online. I was also told that this had happened to someone else nearby. Hallowell sent their own technicians from Maine to replace the compressors and check out the entire system from scratch. At this point, they changed one Thermostat to one of their own specifications which they had redesigned since my system had been installed only months before. They only had one of them and therefore I was concerned about each one being different since they had already explained for an hour that the first ones were better and that there was no need to switch them. Then I was told the exact opposite and neither explanation made any sense as each time they contradicted what they had just took the time to explain. This was with the lead technicians of the installers present. Even they were shaking their heads in the confusion.

Additionally, I agreed to have the heat strips not come on during the 20-30 degree level which apparently it does automatically. In Boston, it's a silly way to do heat since we can have months of weather where it varies between those temps during the days and evenings. Duane, himself, suggested such an option. Even so, the monthly bills kept being in the $700-900 range.

In a previous conversation with Duane, he had said that the $90/month was an 'average' for the entire year when you considered that for some months you wouldn't be using the system at all (?). I thought that might be the same as when the car manufacture figures that some of the time you're driving downhill with the engine off. I explained that even given his calculations, I had gone through that budget in only 1 1/2 months of usage.

Well now it's January 2010 and I received another bill close to $800. The outside unit is completely frozen over and I'm told that the computer boards have failed. The installer has been fantastic and worked hand in hand with Hallowell to try and remedy this situation. I was informed that another woman had the exact same problems too. The installer found out from other installers that they're having the same difficulties and that Hallowell has not honored any of their warranties and that they've all lost money on their own costs and servicing of the units.

My installer is now offering to give me a Carrier Hybrid system instead and had given up on Hallowell and feels bad that his customers who trusted him were so disappointed.

If this were a car, that promised to save you money but then was declined the promised rebates, was miss wired by the manufacturer's own written instructions, then the engine failed, now the computer boards failed and was costing you thousands of extra money on gas then I think you might be perturbed and very disappointed in the car.

In summary, I was very enthusiastic and thought that we were making the best decision for our family. It was a tremendous expense especially as my wife is a teacher and I'm self employed. I thought that we're ahead of the curve and that this would be great. I was extremely patient and never got angry although I admit that, in the privacy of my own home, my language got colorful when I saw those electric bills.

One could easily blame it on the installer if it wasn't for the fact that Hallowell had been involved since day one on the installation and the owner himself came down to check everything out for himself. In fact, the installer is the only one who has stood by me this entire time. The product is defective and exorbitant to buy, install, maintain and in monthly utility bills. I'm sure that I'm not the only one to get a lemon. I don't think this is a one case scenario.

I am not a bogus poster and this is purely to warn others of this situation. The consumer should not have to worry about brand new equipment repeatedly failing and huge electric bills when the exact opposite was promised.

I would suggest working hand-in-hand with your installer and other customers who have had serious problems and contact a lawyer. Hallowell shouldn't be let off the hook. In spite of all the written warranties they give you, and all the verbal reassurances that they would fix things, there is a thing in the contracting world called implied warranty. That is one a manufacturer cannot dismiss. If a product is touted to perform in a certain manner, and it does not, the mfr is legally bound to make good.

Thank you for your suggestion since I typically hate confrontations and try to be reasonable instead. However, this has been a financial disaster for us and I regret my decisions in trying to improve upon a system that was only a few years old and in fine working order for something that not only was hugely expensive but entirely defective. I feel bad for the installer too since his company has spent hours, days and weeks trying to rectify something that just doesn't work. I thought it significant that the installer lectured me on the bad Karma of doing this to consumers who act in good faith.

Just thought I'd update...

Acadia 3 ton unit installed (retrofitted) March 2009. "Call for service" has been showing and auxilliary heat kicking in routinely. I have a hydronic loop so no electric backup.

It seems now that the system was installed with an air handling unit which is too small for the job. The head installer of the company I used has been in touch with Hallowell and they too believe it is an air handling issue. They are now sourcing out a 4 ton air handling unit after adding additional air return ductwork to see if that would fix the problem. It seems that there isn't enough air running over the plenum to sufficiently cool the refrigerant, thus it returns to the compressors too warm and triggers an overheat shutoff. Somebody goofed big time, and I'm quite sure after many, many service calls the profit margin on this install is approaching zero. I'm still waiting for the new air handling unit to be installed, and am hoping that it works.

As for electric bills, with natural gas as my backup supply, bills haven't been bad, slightly higher than when I was using natural gas. I know that with electric backup systems the unit will call for aux heat if the thermostat is more than 3 degrees F higher than room temperature. The same applies to goethermal, as my sister found out before re-programming everything to make sure there is never more than a 2 degree demand.

Cooling during our admittedly cooler than normal summer in Toronto was fine, and not too expensive compared to the beast this unit replaced.

I would have made one change in the hydronic system: there is a 3 speed pump on the hydronic loop to the heat exchanger. I would have staged aux heat to start at low, then move up to medium and then high as demand increases. I have my Rinnai set at 120 degrees and it will heat the house at that, though if very cold I have to go downstairs and increase the pump speed. Of course I've beein running on aux 80% of the time since the system keeps cutting out with the "Call for service" message. When it works, it works. The unit has iced up once, they changed the defrost algorythm and it has been fine since. Those in coastal cities like Boston, or living close to the Great Lakes should do this since the ambient humidity is higher and may result in icing up on the factory set algorythm.

Until the installation mistake is corrected, I'm reserving judgement on the system itself. I've not had any problems with the compressors. I'll keep everyone posted until then.

My installer has been described by several people as the best in the business -- he won't sign his name to something unless it's done right. He has installed several Acadia units with the hydronic system I have. I trust his judgement on the air flow diagnosis (especially since it's his company that has to cough up the fix, not Hallowell) and he has told me that I'm not getting what I paid for and he will fix it whatever it takes. Of course talk is cheap, and, again, I'll let you know.

Rob.

Forgot to mention that the outside unit sounds like a jet engine landing on the property. That's remedied though since the whole thing is a block of ice and ramped up even louder so you could hear it down the block and now it's completely failed with only the heat strips going. At least, the sound is gone and we can hear ourselves talk again. This next electric bill is going to really hurt.

About a year we were considering either the Acadia or Geothermal.  Nearest city is Indianapolis, IN.  We have 3600 square feet on the first level and about 1800 square feet in the basement. We had a 4ton ASHP. Man-J revealed we needed 5 ton system to meet the heating needs. The house is zoned into (1) Bedrooms (2)Main living area and (3) Basement.

Our biggest problem was when the temperature dropped to near 0, our heat pump could only generate about 22,000 btu's if I remember correctly. As a result the Aux heat was engaging almost all winter long. Our worry about the acadia was the reports of system failures and questionable reports on the energy. Additionally, the multiple compressors design  seemed like more stuff to break.

As a result we went with a Climatemaster 27 with horizontal loops. So far our highest electric bill has been just under $300. Our highest with the ASHP was nearly 1,000. Our zone controller is made by jackson controls (z-600).

The GSHP works down to 0 without having to engage Aux heat. We have shutoff the aux heat and when the outside temperature gets close to 0, we crank up the wood fire-place.

I really have no compliants about the system. It heats and cools the house like it should, and the DSH is just bonus.

Dan - It has been months since your post.  Did you ever make a final decision?

When I was building my house, I investigated the Acadia units.  When I could not get a sales person to call me back, I began to wonder what would happen if I needed support.  If the sales guys don't call you back, gheesh!  I went with geo.

Anyway, just wondering what you decided to do.

Regards,
Ed

Here's an update on my Acadia 3-ton system installed almost a year ago. The problems have all been rectified. My advice for anyone considering this system is to make sure the people doing the installation & specs are very, very good. There was an error made in calculating requirements for my ductwork. (this is a retrofit). Turns out there was not enough air moving through the plenum to extract all the heat when the system kicked into stage 2, thus a high temperature shutdown occurred and the system would go into emergency backup mode. The plenum was replaced with a 4 ton unit, and now the system is working perfectly. The temperature has been on the cool side in Toronto the past few weeks, and the system has gone stage 2 or 2+ several times without incident. All this could have been avoided if the unit was installed properly in the first place.

Also, regarding the chap in Boston with icing problems: the company now changes the defrost algorythm when shipping to areas near large bodies of water. I'm in downtown Toronto, just obout a mile from Lake Ontario. I had my unit completely ice up on me as well, but have had no problems since the defrost cycle was changed. You really have to make sure the people you're dealing with are competent! The head tech from the company I dealt with tells me he has several Acadia installs working perfectly, but has one that he cannot fix due to ductwork/airflow issues beyond his control. Again, this is a retrofit to existing ductwork. Sales people are all too anxious to sell these systems since they're relatively expensive, and tend to overlook potential problems in retrofit applications.

As for cost, with the system running stage one for most of the last billing cycle and reverting to emergency mode often, my natural gas bill was the same as it was on a monthly equal billing, except I'm not on equal billing anymore. My Hydro bill was about $150 more than it was the year before. It is important to note that I do not use electric resistance heat for backup, instead having a hydronic loop fed by an 85% efficient Rinnai tankless system. (The new Rinnai's are 95% efficient, I wish I'd waited!). I'll repost cost figures when I get my next set of bills which will cover the coldest part of the winter here.

Cheers,

Rob.

Hello! First time post on these forums!
thanks for all the great info here!

I am about to start building a house in SE Michigan, Ray, MI 48096
I have natural gas at the road currently.
anyways, I am considering a geo thermal system
I''m on 12 acres, so plenty of room for a horz system, and I will be digging a pond as well, so a pond system woudl work to

anywyas, the house will be 3000sq ft or so
I'm debating whether or not to simply do a 95% effic furnace, and use extra money to upgrade insulation to spray foam
or just go with regular insulation, and do a geo-thermal system

any advise?
thanks
Ray

We installed the Acadia 2 years ago and since then we have had a board die on us, a condenser motor go and now the thing ices up solid anytime there is moisture in the air and in heat mode. The techs thus far have been helpful and hope to have the icing resolved soon however I am pissed off because I talked with the company several times as well as numerous clients and asked all of the questions I could think of before making the decision to buy and feel like we were lied to and deliberately deceived as to the units actual capabilities. If it weren't such a financial hardship I would go out and buy another type of air source HP and shitcan the Acadia. We have spent up to $700 in a month during the coldest part of the winter on electric because of the units icing and other problems (whole house is electric). This technology is not ready for primetime so I would strongly suggest to anyone considering an Acadia to stay far away until it has been proven beyond any doubt to work. If anyone knows of or is pursuing a class action against Hallowell count me in.