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Ona
Basic Member
Posts:189
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| 20 Aug 2009 08:12 AM |
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I know I'm coming in late on this topic, but I wanted to share my experience with my WaterFurnace installation. I live in a heating dominated area (Upstate NY). Last winter was my first winter heating my home with geothermal.
Before geothermal, we kept the thermostat at 58 degrees F and paid around $3,000 for the heating season in heating oil (our oil furnace was 84% efficient and serviced every year - I believe this efficiency is normal for oil furnaces). This was consistent for the 4 years previous to us installing geothermal.
After geothermal, we kept the thermostat at 64 degrees F and paid around $850 in extra electricity for the heating season (I paid to have submeters installed so I know exactly how much electricity my geo system used). We were more comfortable because of the higher temp and more consistent heating.
The drawback was that our home was much drier than it was with our older radiator system. But I was informed of this before making my choice. Speaking of making my choice, I interviewed 3 installers personally and 2 additional ones over the phone before I chose. I did not go with the least expensive installer. Rather, I chose the one where our personalities fit better and that had good references. My advice is to never underestimate your gut feeling about people.
I just wanted to make you aware of what I feel is a successful WaterFurnace installation and operation. It's also been great to have air conditioning during this summer for the times when it's needed (either to cool or take out humidity from the house). |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 20 Aug 2009 08:38 AM |
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Thanks to those who posted good things about Water Furnace. |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 21 Aug 2009 08:53 AM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 08/18/2009 12:25 PM
I think one interesting difference between the two industries is who actually holds the warranty.
For the HVAC industry, for most of the manufacturers, the end purchaser does not in fact hold the warranty. It's the installer. When there's a repair needing warranty attention, the consumer here has far fewer options. In fact, in many cases the consumer only has one - work with his/her installer.
Best regards,
Bill With due respect Bill the warranty is held by the purchaser. The difference is that when you select waterfurnace you limit yourself to the amount of dealerships that you can contact for repairs. Other brands are less protective of dealerships. This means that other brands may have more authorized service agents. To extrapolate that to your thermostat example, virtually everybody with a contractors license may change out a WR thermostat under warranty. The difference is who underwrites the warranty. While WR covers the part, the original installer is the underwriter of the labor warranty and the only one that will honor it. Nor will White Rogers send you a replacement stat (any more than Ford will send you replacement parts), it must be replaced by an authorized agent. When shopping folks need to understand that some brands are more available than others. Some have more service agents and locally available parts (at distributors other than the installing contractor). If you buy a product installed exclusively by your contractor you'd best pray he always has the parts you need and never goes out of business. Brand focus is often regional so what's a dime a dozen here may not be elsewhere. Regarding a company that "doesn't wish to clean-up some other guys mess". I get the sentiment but would suggest that part of their agreement with the manufacturer is to repair any of their equipment. Difference again is who underwrites the labor warranty. joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 21 Aug 2009 09:21 AM |
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Joe, you advocate on this forum the importance of contractor/installer/dealer selection, to the extent that this decision is more fundamental than brand selection.
I completely agree.
Included in my support of this position is the fact that in most cases, the end consumer does not own the warranties - the HVAC professional does (making selection of the HVAC professional all the more critical). I recognize, though, that you don't agree, that indeed the end consumer does own the warranties in most cases.
Perhaps this is a regional difference, or competitive market difference, between your locale (Michigan) and mine (Texas). Nonetheless, we'll just have to respect each other's point of view on this one. Plus, different points of view are healthy for good discussion here.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 21 Aug 2009 09:24 AM |
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Perhaps someone could discuss WF's different warranty options (which effect price) and how their labor allowances (only in some options) are not intended to cover all of the labor costs.
How does the customer verify which WF warranty he got at install time (vs after the warranty card is sent in)? Are some dealers sending the card in with their name on it?
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SEEKER84
New Member
Posts:5
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| 22 Aug 2009 05:59 PM |
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Well here I sit in Florida for the 2nd weekend in a row with this crappy unit call water furnace not working again.... 3 times they have been out this week, dampers not working, switches burning out, water leaking thru our ceiling, now who know what the hell is going on now. When we built this house 3 1/2 years ago we though we would (being retired) install geo-thermal to help us with are heating and cooling cost. Well in 40 years of marriage are electric bill is now 500.00 a month some saving huh??? God knows what it will be next month .Water furnace is a piece of crap that for some reason you all seen to defend.. Try living with this nightmare and then voice your opinion. I will once again say save you money this is noth worth it, unless you enjoy nightmares. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 22 Aug 2009 06:08 PM |
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Seeker...
I really do feel sorry for your troubles. You clearly have problems either from a bad design job, a bad install job, or a bad piece of equipment.
If I were closer to you, I would come and help you out.
How ever your experience is not typical of heat pump systems.
Just a few days ago we came across a person here in Utah that has a Water Furnace unit that is 19 years old. It is still working and he has been happy with it for 19 years.
I hope you can get a resolution soon.
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 23 Aug 2009 10:58 AM |
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Seeker,
Most of us are not Waterfurnace dealers. We are not compelled to defend a competitive product.
Most of the pros here however try to be helpful, to folks that want help, regardless of brand.
By and large we find that poor installations or designs are the problem in most cases. If you care to start a thread that has a chance of helping you address some of your problems we will try to help. On this very forum we have helped solve problems for many people and even helped to arrange a manufacturer refund. We can help with specific questions and specific answers.
If you prefer to complain, you are doing it in a venue predominantly filled with pros and satisfied users (or owners that want to be). You are not likely to find satisfaction here.
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 23 Aug 2009 11:25 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 08/23/2009 10:58 AM
... the pros here ... try to be helpful, to folks that want help, regardless of brand.
By and large we find that poor installations or designs are the problem in most cases.
... On this very forum we have helped solve problems for many people and even helped to arrange a manufacturer refund.
... We can help with specific questions and specific answers. I think these are very well stated comments. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 01 Apr 2010 10:07 AM |
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It's probably fair to mention that on another forum, WFI has started responding directly to customer complaints. I sent them a PM that encouraged them to do the same here.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 01 Apr 2010 10:27 AM |
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I think it safe to say that 90% + problems with all the major brands stem from errors in system design or installation, not the units themselves.
Seeker, I'm in Florida, not sure where you are, it is a big state. Depending on your location and situation I may be able to assist or coordinate some assistance. No one here wants unhappy geo system owners.
Feel free to either PM me or post specifics of your situation that we can all chew on. Ideally start your own thread and answer as many of the troubleshooting tips found in the sticky up top. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
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| 01 Apr 2010 11:39 AM |
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We discovered Marlene’s post and in July of 2009 forwarded it to our distributor in Ontario. Unfortunately, WaterFurnace was not actively participating in social media at that time. In January of 2010 WaterFurnace decided to join the social media networks, in order to better assist WaterFurnace owners. We are participating in several forums, and are always looking for new comments, threads, blogs, posts, etc. that involve our equipment. We encourage anyone with an issue to contact us, as we would be more than happy to offer our assistance.
WaterFurnace International, Inc. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 01 Apr 2010 01:41 PM |
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Posted By WF_Inc. on 01 Apr 2010 11:39 AM
... In January of 2010 WaterFurnace decided to join the social media networks, in order to better assist WaterFurnace owners. We are participating in several forums, and are always looking for new comments, threads, blogs, posts, etc. that involve our equipment. We encourage anyone with an issue to contact us, as we would be more than happy to offer our assistance.
WaterFurnace International, Inc. Welcome. I'm sure users here will value your contributions.
I had 2 Envision units installed in mid-2007, and did extensive analysis afterwards to see if WFI's marketing claims with respect COP, EER and capacity were legit. After building a monitoring solution, it was easy to show that indeed WFI's claims are accurate (specifically for my models, 3 and 5 ton 2-stage variable speed). The real time portion of the system continues to operate ( http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ ).
I think there's a lot to be learned from forums like this for HVAC companies like yours, even if you can't always comment other than with the 'comany line.'
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:356
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| 08 Apr 2010 12:00 AM |
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Anyone notice the date of WF Inc's post above? |
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WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
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| 08 Apr 2010 09:41 AM |
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Farmboy,
We are not sure what you are referring to. Please be more specific so that we may address any issue we might have missed.
WaterFurnace International, Inc. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 08 Apr 2010 10:40 AM |
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I could be mistaken, but Farmboy may be referring to April Fools Day and not be aware that WF is a relatively new legitimate poster here and elsewhere. I know this since WF was able to access my name when I PM'd them my unit's serial number. I was skeptical at first too, but not any longer. :-) |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 08 Apr 2010 10:58 AM |
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Anyone notice that the OP hasn't been seen here since last July? |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:356
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| 09 Apr 2010 01:53 PM |
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WF, Inc.
Geome is correct about my reference to April Fool's Day and I appreciate him confirming yours was a legitimate effort. My wife and I will start construction of our dream home this fall and as we have talked to a number of contractors in various construction disciplines we find our BS sensing meter is getting calibrated. So while I have a squinty eye when discussing topics, I try to keep an open mind so I can learn and discern.
There are some sensible professionals and laymen participating in this forum and I take their comments and advice seriously. The fact that Bill (A0..8) above is satisfied with his Envision systems is a plus in your favor as I consider him a credible reference as well as others.
I think it's good that WF is getting more involved and hope you're able to turn around the negative publicity you've been subject to. Actions speak louder than words! Good Luck. Dave
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GreenSWOhio
New Member
Posts:74
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| 28 Mar 2011 11:29 AM |
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The discussion went way off topic on this thread.
Does anyone know Marlene's fate? Did her Waterfurnace get fixed before winter or did she have another expensive heating season?
What was the final resolution? Would she now say better things about WF Inc?
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 28 Mar 2011 11:18 PM |
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It is our experience that folks tend to drift away, whether resolved or not we seldom know.
Occasionally someone will give us the courtesy of sharing the outcome. That is the exception not the rule.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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