If WaterFurnace is still monitoring this forum, maybe they know the outcome to Marlene's problem.

Alton,

Marlene is located in Toronto, Ontario. WaterFurnace is represented by a distributor in Ontario. Therefore, we would have directed Marlene back to her distributor, and they would have addressed her concerns.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Let us hope that the distributor solved her problems.  I do not like for my clients to read about problems with WaterFurnace.  It makes my job that much harder to convince them to go geothermal.

WF has been doing a better job lately directly addressing user concerns broadcast online. I suspect that may be in part a result of a blistering message I sent them a year or so back concerning multiple failed systems to which they had been responding to with typical corporate bureaucratic stonewalling. I never received a response to that barrage but "WF_Inc" showed up here shortly thereafter.

However, that last post hypothesizing two "would haves" in a row comes across as classic corporate PR doublespeak since it gives no actual evidence that the complainant's concerns were in fact addressed, never mind resolved. Perhaps WF has fallen off the wagon.

It would have been so much better to have been able to read something along the lines of: "We relayed Marlene's issues to our distributor in Toronto and worked with them to resolve the situation...it is our understanding that Marlene's system is now operating as designed"

The lack of clarity gives rise to a supposition that WF basically blew Marlene off...I suspect Alton is alluding to that same possibility, but he is evidently nicer and less blunt than I...

I don't 'do' collective "hope"...I demand positive action resulting in measurable improvement

Call me old school...

I've spoken with WF PR about their involvement on social media and I gotta tell you I'm not certain the good out weighs the bad here.
While it's nice for consumers to feel they have the ear of the company, what they have is the ear of a PR exec.
Saddled with the occasional loosely veiled threat of legal action, as well as not being on the tech side themselves, most WF blogger contributions inevitably will sound vanilla.
The worst part is that it almost sounds as the legal dept. is involved in some of the answers now as most meat has been removed from the bone of content.
Finally in a recent conversation elsewhere, when a contributor asked for specifics on something the WF response was to PM something to a consumer vs share a link. When barbed about the secrecy WF responded more foolishness.
I don't know if the blogger has changed at WF, or if legal dept shackles have been applied but the quality of contribution has definately plunged to where they might be better off keeping quiet.
j

I respectfully disagree about WF's responses here. Perhaps I missed them, but I don't recall posts of continuing dissatisfaction once WF gets involved (save for lawsuits where neither party should publicly comment.) I think we should give WF benefit of the doubt since many posters, once satisfied, don't write back with the solution. In this case, we are assuming continued dissatisfaction where none may exist. Also, many posters tend to bash companies when the underlying issues may rest with the installation, the installer goes out of business, or the installer is just not competent.  Another possibility is that the poster is made to understand that the problem was with their installer, and not with the equipment.

Through these forums, WF has answered many of my questions, and identified a known lockout issue (when no one else did) based solely on my description of the problem in the forum and they contacted me to volunteer a fix without even being asked to do so. They recently (within the past 2 weeks) provided me with a wiring schematic regarding the installation of a generator as a result of my forum questions.

What other geo manufacturer do we have to compare them to?  No other manufacture is actively participating in these forums.  Why aren't the other manufacturers being publically criticized here for not participating in the forum?  I also wouldn't expect any manufacturer to explain every time why they won't provide certain information publicly. I say Kudos to WF for taking the time to help customers on geothermal forums.  Other manufacturers would be well advised to follow the lead of WF, and participate in geothermal forums.

WF does not know that I exist although I am responsible for several purchases over the years.  If my faith diminishes in the quality of WF or their ability or desire to solve problems for the dealer and homeowner, then I will just specify a different brand or a different type of system.  Knock on wood, but so far, I have not heard of any problems that any of my projects have had with WF.

I do understand that companies in America as opposed to Japan live an die by quarterly results.  But I think a company that plans for the long term and stands behind their product and dealer/distributors would greatly increase their market share especially after the word gets out to the public.  I know that having to eat a defective unit or bad install will hurt the quarterly results but that would be much better than telling the homeowner that they have to find a dealer to fix their problem.  After paying that much money, the homeowner should not have to assume the responsibility of trouble shooting and fixing the problem.

Posted By Alton on 30 Mar 2011 08:40 AM
I know that having to eat a defective unit or bad install will hurt the quarterly results but that would be much better than telling the homeowner that they have to find a dealer to fix their problem.  After paying that much money, the homeowner should not have to assume the responsibility of trouble shooting and fixing the problem.

Nor should the factory have to assume the responsibility in the majority of the cases.  A GSHP is designed to operate WITHIN certain design conditions...If the installer does not install proper duct work, loop field, or wiring why do so many think the factory should be held to account? 

If you want to tow a RV with a Ford Torus, that's your right, just don't expect the factory to cover the transmission under warranty!!

Bergy

As a general statement, manufactures should improve diagnostic and logging functions. Once you have a microprocessor inside, adding more of these functions adds very little to the cost.

The current way things are set up with installers, the factory does not have to assume responsibility.  But if a certain installer generates a lot of complaints, then I would think the factory has a vested interest in protecting their good name and reputation instead of just saying "work it out with the installer".  I think the factory should drop the installer as a dealer and help to correct the problems. 

If I tell a client (homeowner) that a product will save a lot of energy but if they have problems they are on their own, then with something as complex as a geothermal unit/installation, the number of geo units purchased will decrease.  If a company develops this type of reputation with any kind of product, eventually the word gets to the public and this can affect the company's sales.

Geome, you make a lot of good points.
We'll mark you for an aye.
I might have been a tad scathing, and in fairness I've certinly had a post or two that I might wish I'd phrased differently.
I think part of the trouble for a corporate contributor is that they can't speak freely.
More gently put: that sometimes leads to the appearence of double speak.
j

Obi-Wan, you have taught me well. 

Thank you all for your comments.

Our goal in using social media is to find WaterFurnace customers who may have questions or concerns with regards to their WaterFurnace equipment or geothermal system. We want to answer their questions or assist them in any way we can.

We understand social media is an avenue for people to discuss various topics. However, our primary focus is not to engage in theoretical discussions about what may or may not happen in various circumstances or situations associated with geothermal systems.

As for our response to the original post by Alton, we certainly could have chosen our words better and apologize for this. We do remember Marlene, and we did refer her to our Distributor in Ontario. They contacted her and the issue was resolved.

WaterFurnace is fairly new to the social media network and continually strives to improve communications using these forums.

How are your respective manufacturers handling social media?

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

WF_Inc,

Now you are communicating.  Your message and intent is more apparent now.

Thank you.

Folks, WF is making the effort.  What about the other manufactures?   Could they be on other forums?

CH in MD

The other manufacturers are not on other forums as far as I can tell. They do have a much broader net in terms of support, i.e. a chain of command starting with the installer and ending at corporate. The people along the chain are only as good as the last person they helped. In my horrible experiance with a design gone wrong it went up the chain with everyone blamming the loops to save face, including the regional factory rep. I contacted corporate and they stepped in and called a spade a spade and all was resolved. So I think that since WF does not do traditional distribution it is important for them to crawl the web more so than others. Any effort to shorten the chain and solve problems should be applauded.
Eric

WF - much better.

WP - well said, especially about the blame game. I see it all the time - I guess it is human nature to attempt to mask ignorance with bluster

Quick related story - Our (latest...we go through them like water) spray foam installer has an excellent rig powered by a (fairly) quiet 30 kW Diesel genny. One morning last week, no start. We were 5 minutes from cancelling the job when I stumbled upon a stuck fuel cutoff solenoid. I'm no Diesel expert, but have driven them for 30 years so have picked up some practical knowledge. What ties that story to this thread is a clue, a standing situation that the foamer has lived with for years - Diesel refuses to start when warm - he's had to leave it running through lunch breaks etc. His dealer, unable to solve the problem, had taken to fobbing it off as "normal" That's complete hogwash - warm Diesels are happy Diesels, able to restart in seconds.

We know WF makes excellent equipment. We also know that any HVAC system, no matter how well designed, will fail miserably in the hands of in ill-informed installer. In many areas, (such as my own) geo dealers do not lie thick upon the ground. If one has a Trane (or a Ford) but the dealer / tech is subpar, it is usually a simple matter to go 5-10 miles down the road to another...this is often not the case with geo.

The internet provides a useful safety valve of sorts to identify and resolve field issues. In an ideal world, WF wouldn't have to participate here - installation issues should be able to be resolved at the dealer level, but we've seen too many examples of marginal installers running for cover

The internet also works when systems ARE in fact working well but the dealer can't adequately articulate that fact or the user simply mistrusts the dealer - we've become a society of distrust since there are so many scammers in so many fields.

Posted By engineer on 03 Apr 2011 08:52 AM
WF - much better.
The internet also works when systems ARE in fact working well but the dealer can't adequately articulate that fact or the user simply mistrusts the dealer - we've become a society of distrust since there are so many scammers in so many fields.

I'm reminded of a cartoon in the AM Legion magazine this month where a physician chastizes a patient on the exam table (frantically typing into a Blackberry)-"at least wait 'til I leave the room before you get your on-line, second opinion"!

.....all told, I think WF's efforts come from the right place, I'm simply not convinced I would want my manufacturer to do the same.
J

I can identify with Marlenes issues. I'm in northeast Ohio and we installed a geothermal system in 1993. First furnace was a bard and it had issues. Went back to our installer and spent $5000 for a carrier unit he recommended. $ years later (now) the compressor is bad. It is covered under warranty but the installer wants $1100 to install compressor. Seems way high to me. Carrier is not any help and is pawning us off to the manufacture of their furnace even though carrier is branded on the furnace. I would not go with geothermal again. 1700 sq ft house with electric bills running $300-400 in winter and $150 in Summer. Gee what great savings.

carrier furnace is 4 years old.