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Are you happy with your geo?
Last Post 09 Mar 2010 09:17 AM by joe.ami. 49 Replies. |
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ArtModerne
New Member
Posts:9
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| 25 Feb 2010 11:04 PM |
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Thanks everyone, for your replies. I haven't really seen any arguments here to convince me that geo is the way to go. It makes me sad to say it (I'm afraid we may have sold a more units with our excitement before we actually knew performance data).
I am not a professional, I don't know how to check EWT, I just know the US taxpayer forked over $10,000 for this system. We get discounted PECO rates, so each winter month, PA utility subscribers are subsidizing us as well. Even with these benefits, I'm not sure the additional costs made economic sense for us, and for the taxpayer, it almost definitely does not.
As I mentioned, we did this to be green and to save $$. We are guzzling over 3000 kwh per month in electric. I feel as though I am achieving neither.
I hope that people continue to debate and discuss this on this board. If this is not an efficient way to heat homes, then those of us who are green, should not continue to support it. If it is, then let's hear it here.
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psaprop
New Member
Posts:5
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| 26 Feb 2010 12:16 AM |
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When we built our house 30 years ago we installed open loop geothermal heat pumps. It is a 4000 sq.ft. 1 1/2 story home with a 5-ton unit and a 3 ton unit. The units were built by Friedrichs who I believe sold its geo product line to ClimateMaster. We live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana where the groundwater temperature is 67 degrees.
The home is well insulated with what was available at the time (Marvin storm windows, 6 inch walls with 3/4 inch foam board insulation and a cedar shake roof).
So what is the point of all this?
I am in the process of replacing my HVAC and water system with more up to date technology and I see no alternative to using geothermal. This is not based on a lot of technical data but on the actual comparison of my electric bills with those of my neighbors. We all built at around the same time and, at that time, our subdivision had only electricity - no water, gas or sewage. No one chose oil or propane so the homes are all electric. The homes have different architecture and square footage but my electric bill is at a minimum half and in some cases 20% of some neighbors homes. My average bill over 10 years is under $230. In mild months it can dip below $100 and I have neighbors who "saved" money on low efficiency HVAC who have $1,200 electric bills (with perhaps 25% more square footage).
I am installing a Franklin Sub Drive 2 Hp variable speed pump system and am trying to decide between ClimateMaster and Hydron Module for the geothermal pumps (Hydron Module does not have a local distributor).
I am really not expecting substantially lower electric bills even though the efficiency of either new system is probably double that of the existing one and the pump may save a bit, but going to air to air presents a risk that I am not willing to take. In addition, prices for very high efficiency air to air unit are comparable to geo and there is no 30% tax credit.
I can sympathize with those making a first time decision because I made a first time decision 30 years ago and based on the data I'm looking at I believe I made the right one. I only hope the current decisions work out as well.
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 26 Feb 2010 07:19 AM |
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ArtModerne,
For some reason you are inclined to complain about your system and not to answer direct questions here and in another geothermal forum. You also conveniently choose to ignore many positive responses in this and in other threads. As has been mentioned here, it appears that you have an anti-geothermal agenda. You are much more interested in what taxpayers and other PECO subscribers are spending as opposed to what you are spending. In my opinion, this is a red flag concerning your legitimacy.
This being said, I would like to believe you. I am from SE PA and go there frequently. Would you allow me to visit your house to see your system? If so, please PM me your phone number so I can contact you. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 26 Feb 2010 08:13 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 24 Feb 2010 07:47 PM
If you do not know the previous heating costs, how can you say the system is not saving money?
If you do know the heat load and can tell us your average cost/kw hour, we can estimate operating costs to see if something is wrong.
By the way, do you dispute the value of an investment in insulation? Was it only good advice if a geo system was installed? I ask because you appear to be criticicizing a recommendation to insulate your home.
What does your installing contractor have to say about your bills? Why is the CM website responsible for your operating cost projections? How much experience does your installing contractor have in geo.
You have also not identified how much of your electric bill is geo vs well water, hot water, perhaps electric resistance heat in baths, regular household consumption etc.
Sorry if our tone is occasionally challanging, but the information provided so far does not necessarily mean major problems. We can not tell without more information.
One of the old arguments against geo is high electric bills curiously no one mentions that these "high" bills are often half the amount of their old propane or oil bills.
Good luck,
Joe So.... Based on some of our input you think geo may not be the way to go? Hope you didn't get any of that out of my comments! Again you've concluded this while you are unable to dispute that the old heating bills may have been twice your current ones. Your unwillingness to answer these questions however and tone in general do seem to suggest an anti geo bias. You also are apparently disinterested in help with your questions or "problems". That is all up to you, but I don't suggest you frequent GEO forums to convince people not to buy geo. You also could use some education in debate and logic if you wish to intelligently present your case against geo. Good Luck, Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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samhariharan
New Member
Posts:28
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| 26 Feb 2010 09:20 AM |
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As I thought my post indicated, I installed geo in 2007 and got no real tax credits since for some reason there were no geo credits for that year. In spite of that, all my calculations before the install and all my data after install for the next 3 cooling and heating seasons suggest that economically it was an excellent decision. I have tried to show in the data I posted that my savings are at least around 50% from comparable units, very conservatively estimated. So, I would make the same decision again without any hesitation. I could justify a geo choice without any subsidies. I hated the fact that they did not have geo in the green tax incentives in 2007 - ironic given that George Bush actually has geo for his ranch and should know its benefits. One could argue that maybe when there are clear economic benefits you don't need to give any tax rebates, but if it is also good for the environment and you want to nudge people to make this investment, it certainly could help budget-constrained folks to make this choice.
As a bonus, a good chunk of the geo investment I was able to fold into my mortgage since I chose to do it as part of my purchase price so it turns out to be cash flow positive even from the first month since you pay for the investment over the 30 year life of the mortgage while paying less for utilities each month than your monthly payment for the geo.
I think as some have suggested, the kwh consumption numbers you have posted seem somewhat out of whack given the experience of most of us who have these systems, or the experiences of those who install them. Check out the detailed data from the many welserver sites, and you will not see better documented savings of geo installs. I can also say when you see the number of these folks who install them also having them in their own homes, that is good reason to believe them - they put their money where their mouth is!
Sam
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ArtModerne
New Member
Posts:9
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| 26 Feb 2010 11:24 AM |
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First of all - I am not anti-geo. I have invested a lot of money in this system. We raved and bragged to everyone about it. The installer came to our daughter's science class to present on geothermal, we wrote rave reviews on Angie's List, we got at least 3 other people to look at installing it, we were the go-to reference for our installing company. Then the winter bills came and the reality hit us. Not very impressive.
As I mentioned before, comparing previous bills with the old system is not a valid comparison. We had the original 1940 oil furnace. We would never have kept it - we would have installed some other high efficiency system. There is no way to make a perfect comparison, so I am not even going to try. I am just going to look at our current usage.
As I have mentioned, we are using 3200 kwh per month in a 2400 st ft home - 2600 of which is attributable to heat. If PECO were not providing us with subsidized rates, our electric bills would be $480!!!! With the subsidy, we pay around $300- $325. This doesn't feel very green.
Is this undoubtedly less for heat than it would have been with another system? Yes - I am sure it is. It just isn't nearly as great as I had thought it would be. Are our bills terrible? No.
Did we have a manual J - Yes - 55,000
Our installer has been out. The system needed a couple of tweaks - we had a fresh air intake that was removed and some leaking that was repaired. They have said the system is working fine. We were hoping these things would have a huge impact, but our electric usage remains roughly the same (actually went up, but temp dropped a couple of degrees).
I am glad that other people have had a positive experience with their systems. But for us, the jury is still out. We are quite iffy on it. And I can say for certain that if we weren't getting massively subsidized by the taxpayer, the financials would be horrific. We were told to expect $5-$450 cost to heat our home for the entire winter, so yeah, we are disappointed.
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gregj
Basic Member
Posts:326
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| 26 Feb 2010 11:39 AM |
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But not dissapointed enough to get free help here? I'm baffled as to why you have given up on getting your system to work better after having it only a few months. Sometimes good installers make a mistake that they just can't see. The guys on here could help put other eyes on the problem They know their stuff! Give em a chance. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 26 Feb 2010 01:10 PM |
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ArtModerne, Using your line of thought: "I feel that my system is working wonderfully. It is saving me lots of money, but I can't tell exactly how much so I won't even try. The government tax credit program is well spent money and I hope it continues forever. If you don't agree with me I'll stick my fingers in my ears and make noises so I won't hear you." There is no difference between this and your contentions (just taking the opposite viewpoint.) If this doesn't give you an idea of how ridiculous your statements are, then nothing will.
If you re-read this thread, you will see where I compared my system to a conventional air source heat pump replacement. It can be done, but it takes more effort than just looking at your electric bill and whining about it, the government credit (which I'd bet you will apply for if you purchased the geothermal system that you claimed) and the PECO subsidy.
What is 55,000? Heat loss, heat gain? What about ALL the other questions that have been asked and not answered? If you don't know how to get this information, then ask how. This is a forum designed to help people, not a place to just complain about how you "feel" your system is performing without supporting data. We are willing to help you, but not by agreeing with unsubstantiated feelings regarding system performance.
Do you want help, or just to complain? Based on your lack of answers to date, I don't believe you want help. If you truly would like help, then answer all the questions that have been asked. Thanks
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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nevadarn
New Member
Posts:8
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| 26 Feb 2010 01:13 PM |
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I am just a forum lurker - plan on installing a horizontal ground loop - sometime this year [just waiting on $]. This site is fantastic, I and my husband have learned a lot. One of the things is that you need plenty of loop. And an adequate but not oversized unit. When looking at efficiency you need EWT and OWT, gpm of flow, and temperature and out out air outflow. At least to start with.
ArtModerne, could you please list the size of GSHP you have, the size of the loop [and kind and how deep], EWT and OWT, and gpm of flow. This would be a help to those of us planning on installing a GSHP - the pitfalls and what to watch errors to watch for as this forum is to learn from.
There are some great minds here who take time out of their lives to help others, something I really appreciate as geo is not well known in our area [one local distributor who has only installed a couple of set ups].
Thanks to all
nevadarn
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samhariharan
New Member
Posts:28
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| 26 Feb 2010 04:56 PM |
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I could not agree more with geome. Some of the folks here, Joe, Curt, Dewayne, are great sources of wisdom and experience and on top of that, they take a lot of time to help people who need help and information on geothermal.
As Curt pointed out right in the beginning, ArtModerne's kwh/day consumption for the geo unit seems to be really way too high which looks like a red flag that would draw some attention. ArtModerne seems to have a good relationship with his installer, so it may be worth asking why the power consumption is so high. Is that what the system was designed to do?
Consuming 80-85 kwh/day for the geo alone seems high - my house is also a 1923 built 2000 sq ft heated/cooled with a split 4-ton CM. In my worst heating month, my geo adds only about 20 kwh each day. My unit was/is not super insulated so I find it hard to believe that a 4 ton unit can burn so many additional kwh for geo alone for just 500 sq ft more.
I think if you are really keen, the folks here can at least direct you to ask your installer to look in the right places.
As Joe points out, people get alarmed by their electricity bills forgetting the savings in oil or natural gas that they now don't spend on. The only way to estimate savings is by comparing the bills to something. You can use the heating load to at least compare the cost of alternative methods of heating and cooling - as geome suggests.
I believe that not using this forum to really understand what is going on is a huge missed opportunity. Why throw good money away, even if it is somebody else's?
Good luck!
Sam |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 27 Feb 2010 12:49 PM |
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Hello J.
This is very interesting. We do the same kind of cost savings analysis for virtually every system we sell. We make comparisons based on today's price of fossil fuel because that's what people are paying. The savings don't look as dramatic, but they are accurate and give folks a valid basis of comparison. We specialize in DX and frankly the numbers always look good in comparison to any form of fossil fuel.
In your case (new construction) the savings look too low (at least using a DX system).
Paul
Total Green
www.TotalGreenIntl.com
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Pipemajor
New Member
Posts:56
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| 27 Feb 2010 05:10 PM |
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We live in a cold climate (Minnesota) in a 3100 sq foot four level home built in '81. Original furnace was a relatively inefficient (60%) gas forced air. When it came time to update the heating plant, I looked at all alternatives and decided geo should work - especially if we got the ARRA 30% energy tax credit with no cap.
Our WaterFurnace ND049 dual stage system was installed last January and I just had my first post-install service checkup done on earlier this month. We put in a closed vertical loop system comprising four 200' wells.
It's hard to pinpoint our exact energy savings since we now keep the house considerably warmer during the winter without the drastic setbacks we did with our NG furnace. Daytime/evening temps are 70º while night/morning temps are 69º. Fuel/electric prices are also higher this year than last year. During the peak of the winter where outside temps average only in the mid-teens with as many as 20 nights of sub-zero weather, we consumed 2700 kWh per month of combined heat/lighting/cooking as opposed to roughly 950 kWh per month last year. Our NG consumption has dropped from 348 therms ($350) per month to 65 therms ($40) per month using just a gas fireplace, clothes drier and hot water produced above & beyond what the desuperheater provides. That amounts to a savings of about $100/month during the winter months. Keep in mind the house is MUCH warmer and more comfortable.
The real savings appears to be during the summer months. With the old central AC which did a pretty miserable job of keeping the house cool, we regularly use our AC during those hot, sticky days. We consumed around $25 for gas per month and $90 for electrical (800kWh) each summer month.
Not adjusting for the difference in energy costs or the fact that our home is warmer in the winter and cooler during the summer, we realize around a $900 annual savings. Not quite the $2000 shown on our analysis but we are happy so far. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 01 Mar 2010 07:42 AM |
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Posted By nevadarn on 26 Feb 2010 01:13 PM
ArtModerne, could you please list the size of GSHP you have, the size of the loop [and kind and how deep], EWT and OWT, and gpm of flow. This would be a help to those of us planning on installing a GSHP - the pitfalls and what to watch errors to watch for as this forum is to learn from.
There are some great minds here who take time out of their lives to help others, something I really appreciate as geo is not well known in our area [one local distributor who has only installed a couple of set ups].
Thanks to all
nevadarn
Art's only pitfall appears to be expectaions created by the installer that were undeliverable. Try the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association (IGSHPA) list for certified installers. We travel a little further than furnace guys. There may be more than one choice for you. If only one guy is truly available, you'll want to be extremely cautious, make sure you're confident they know what they are doing. A bad heat pump install is worth less than no heat pump installed. Good Luck, Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ArtModerne
New Member
Posts:9
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| 01 Mar 2010 12:08 PM |
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Our installer is actually certified and reputable and on all the lists etc.
People have asked questions on this board that I don't readily have the answers to. I work very hard - I have already spent dozens of hours trying to troubleshoot this system and dealing w installers. All of this sucks up a ton of time, time I just don't always have.
I don't even know what the EWT, etc., are let alone how to find out what it is. I know our delta T from the registers to return is low. Outgoing temp from the registers is around 80-85 and return is 65. Installer said it was duct loss. Not sure - from what we can tell, the system is now working fine, so I have no idea why the temp is low.
We have two 300-ft closed loop ground wells for our 4 ton Climatemaster. Again, 2400 sq ft house, built in 1940 - fully insulted, with original windows.
It is interesting that some people with similar homes have so much less energy usage.
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Laconia Geo
New Member
Posts:3
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| 02 Mar 2010 06:40 AM |
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We are thrilled with our Geo system. I built a 7,200 SF house in Laconia, NH about 4 years ago. With a family of five, with both of us working out of the house full time, our yearly average for heating, cooling and hot water is under $1,850/year. This system has exceeded our expectations. I have always said, if the system was designed and installed properly, they are great. I have put together a website promoting new technologies I used in building this house. My house is not for sale anymore. You can find out more information at 10drummertrail.com. The air conditioning is like non other. It is cold and extremely dry. We keep the house at 72 degrees in the winter 24/7 and in the summer it is at 78 depress and it is cold. I can't say enough about this technology. Just to give you an example, I have a neighbor down the street with a slightly smaller house and family of 2 that purchases 3,500 gallons of oil each year, does have some gas heat and no air conditioning. I know these systems are expensive to purchase, but done right, I think they are the ultimate in heating and cooling. I hope this helps. |
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BadgerBoy
New Member
Posts:20
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| 02 Mar 2010 08:27 AM |
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Greetings. I haven't been on this forum for about a year. I am amazed seeing the veteran members like Joe.ami, engineer and Ona are still plugging away at answering questions and doing it with such patience, professionalism and kindness. Thank you !!!
Just wanted to add my two cents worth about how much we love our geo. Had it installed October of 2008. Live in Northeast Wisconsin. 3 ton WaterFurnace. Horizontal 300 foot trench buried 6 feet deep. Cost us $15,000 after the tax credit. 1900 square foot 50 year old farmhouse. Used 770 gallons of propane previously per year for hot water and forced air heat. Our electric bills averaged $150 per month before geo (our electric rate is about .12perKWH). This last year with geo averaged $190 per month. Our system is a 3 stage unit that never goes into backup electric, so according to some of this forum comments it might be a little oversized, but I think its just right. We still have a propane water heater for backup beyond what the de-superheater produces and had to fill a small propane tank last month. We paid $3.10 per gallon for that propane. If we still had our propane furnace it would cost us well over $2000 for the year for heat that we now get for less than $500. Plus we save a lot on cooling costs in the summer....so....we're happy with geo
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 02 Mar 2010 09:47 AM |
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Posted By ArtModerne on 22 Feb 2010 03:05 PM
Hello there -
This is our first winter with our geothermal system. We purchased the home -- 2400 sq ft built in 1940 - last spring and installed the geo right away. It is a 4 ton Climatemaster with 2-tank water heaters. We spent considerable $$ upgrading our insulation in the attic with spray foam, and the house has fiberglass in the walls. The windows are original steel casement windows, but they are in good condition and we plan to restore them in the spring.
I guess I'm not sure what we expected, but we had heard all of these promises of saving $2,000 per year, etc. (from Climatemaster), we really thought our bills would be super low. Instead, our electric usage has skyrocketed from 613 kwh in September, to over 3200 kwh per month for Dec, Jan and Feb. We receive a discount from our electric provider of 50% for all usage over 600 kwh, so our bills are tolerable. If we didn't get that electric discount, the costs would be astronomical! We also did this to be green, so it doesn't make me feel great that we are guzzling electric at a discounted rate. That wasn't the point of all this.
We spent $27k on our system install and another $5k in insulation for a total of $32,000. Uncle Sam in going to credit us back 30%, but without it, there is absolutely no way this system comes even close to a reasonable payback period. Even with the tax credit, I am NOT convinced this system is worth the money. I am also not convinced that taxpayer dollars are well spent on systems that are not nearly as great as advertised.
Don't get me wrong, our monthly energy costs are manageable, but I am just not convinced it is worth the tremendous upfront costs.
I did not read the whole thread, but there are two major things to consider.
1. The geo systems run much more energy efficient then conventional systems, however, you pay much more for electricity than gas per unit of energy, sometimes up to 4 times as much, partially wiping out actual $$$ savings.
2. You look at your heating costs at the peak months. The amount you pay now for geo heat are 2600 KW/h x 13 cents (if you pay as much as we pay in western New York)=$338, not bad for a house build in the 40 with inefficient windows.
The most important things to remember is that the run time of the unit will go to almost zero in the shoulder months, so you Dec, Jan, Feb, will make up almost 65% of your entire annual heating bill (at least in the northern climate). |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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glien
New Member
Posts:6
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| 02 Mar 2010 09:57 AM |
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I think you are forgetting the flip side of the calculation - your cooling costs. I think you will find that your coolling cost will be way cheaper. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 02 Mar 2010 10:36 AM |
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"I did not read the whole thread....."
You should;
the main reason Art is disappointed is because he expected $50/mo heating bills based on what his installer told him. The fact that he's spending $250/month (after deduction of house hold consumption) does not console him as he has never had to buy 800 gallons of fuel oil in January. Nor is he willing to accept the technology as valid based on comparisons to the old equipment (which doesn't count somehow).
Unrealistic op cost expectaions are unfortunate and most easily ferreted out during the bidding process by careful shoppers. They are not a technology flaw.
"I think you are forgetting the flip side of the calculation - your cooling costs. I think you will find that your coolling cost will be way cheaper."
Actually in heating dominated climates you'll find little in the A/C operating cost deductions to inspire a large investment (Sometimes <$100/year).
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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TomAndersen
New Member
Posts:13
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| 02 Mar 2010 02:26 PM |
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We have a 2000 sq ft modern home with lots of glass and a 3 ton GSW water to water running open loop from 52 deg water. I heat only through radiant everywhere, and have cooling with 3 water driven coils in the highest points in the house. Our electric bill is about $150 higher during nov dec jan and drops off around those months. I have a propane backup that never comes on. When its -10 F or so, the system likely could not keep up - but I can't tell cause we have a woodstove fired up every night for a few hours. Before Geothermal I could easily go through $700 or more of propane in under 4 weeks.
From the geothermal installs that I have seen (which pale in number to some of you pros out there) it seems that forced air systems that are eager to go to backup heat cause a lot of cost. I don't know if you can adjust the temperature differential where the backup coil kicks in, but if you can lower it, you will save.
If anyone is on natural gas, switching to Geothermal will likely NOT save you any money. This stuff is only for non natural gas places right now. |
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