Posted By TomAndersen on 02 Mar 2010 02:26 PM 

If anyone is on natural gas, switching to Geothermal will likely NOT save you any money. This stuff is only for non natural gas places right now.

Not entirely true as an unqualified statement, but it is a longer ROI.
Currently in my area (all things considered) payback is about 10 years against nat gas and <5 against fuel oil and propane.
J

There are only two, but perhaps three, "consumers" of electricity in your system as described.
The first is the compressor inside the heat pump cabinet. It should not be drawing much amperage.
The second is the electric water pump pushing water around your ground loops. They range between .5hp and [sometimes] 3 hp, and if it runs too much, can certainly suck up amps.
If I understand your description of your system, you also have a hydronic circulator pump, pushing water through your potable water system, and perhaps a air handler motor pushing the air through your ducts. [Although you might have only just hydronic piping, for I cannot tell from your limited description.]
Measuring the current draw on each of the three electric motors should tell which is/are the culprits. Get some data, and share it with the forum.

The "culprit" is expectaion.
OP is heating house in deep winter for $250/mo.
j

Posted By joe.ami on 02 Mar 2010 10:36 AM
  Nor is he willing to accept the technology as valid based on comparisons to the old equipment (which doesn't count somehow).

Hi Joe - You have mentioned this a couple of times, so hopefully I can do a better job of explaining why I will not compare the operational costs of my new system to the old one. 

The furnace was original to our home - from 1940.  It was a sight to see!  We actually took video of it burning up the fuel oil (it is posted on YouTube) and saved the Westinghouse door as an souvenir!  We could not even get insurance on the home with this furnace!  Even if we had wanted to keep it (which since we are fairly green, we would never have done) we couldn't have.  That old system was a goner for sure.

To put it in terms that may be easier to understand --  Suppose you wanted to test the efficacy of a new cancer treatment.  Would you give Patient A nitrogen mustards like they used in the 1940s and Patient B the latest targeted therapies?  No, of course not.  You wouldn't give someone outdated and irrelevant cancer treatment.  You would measure the new treatment against whatever is the best standard of treatment currently on the market, thus providing a comparison that is valid in the year 2010.   For us, there would be a new high-efficiency system, the questions was only what kind of new system would it be? 

The geo system was much, much more expensive than another high-efficiency furnace would have been.  Many more thousands of dollars (plus landscaping!).  So - it is fair to ask -- is all the money worth it?  Are we saving that much more energy than we would be with another new system?  If we spent $15,000 more on a geo than another system would have cost, and it only saves $50 per month in Dec, Jan and Feb - then the payback isn't so great. 

I am still hopeful, based on some of the posts here, that maybe there is something wrong with our system, and that we will be able to get our monthly electric usage down.  We did do this to be green and not suck up oil.  It wasn't just about the money, although saving money was of course part of the decision. Our bills aren't terrible, but they aren't great either.  And we had better hope that PECO doesn't end our subsidy, because if they do, our bills will be very high indeed!

“I am not a professional, I don't know how to check EWT,...” Quoting Art, Feb 25.

“I am still hopeful, based on some of the posts here, that maybe there is something wrong with our system, and that we will be able to get our monthly electric usage down. “ Quoting Art, March 3.

Art,

The performance of a geothermal heat pump is easily verifiable by a competent technician.

What do you think of hiring a professional tech to come to your house and check the vital signs of your system? The technician can compare the results to the manufacturer’s specifications. If the heat pump is not delivering as expected, then proceed with troubleshooting your system.

Regards,

Masoud

I have been thinking myself about this for a while and hence thought I should post a reply. Here is my story: - R2000 home, moved to ClimateMaster 27 6 ton Dec 2008 - previous old cost was about $3300-3600 / yr - system cost with install, digging etc was about $28K tax included - we received $7K rebates from the gov't and an interest free loan for the total amount - additional factor is that electricity in Ontario, Canada seems to be really expensive. It is about 6-7 cents/kwh but with extra costs for delivery, and other charges total cost is about double that. They really load up the bill with extra charges. The usage is also measured and multiplied by 1.1 to cover "line loss". I did the calculation over the first year and we almost saved enough to cover the loan cost. The loan runs over 10 years. To be fair, we pocked the rebate so the true cost is really only about 75% of the loan cost. So we might have marginal savings. I am a bit disappointed the electricity cost is so high. Whereas we used to get bills in the $180 range/month, we now average about $330. We keep the thermostat reading quite low, about 64F. Since we not longer had oil, we moved to an electric water heater - this impacts our bills no doubt. If we are lucky enough to have a system which runs without additional cost for 10+ years, we will likely consider this a good decision. If we have issues, sell before 10 years or electricity costs go nuts, it becomes questionable. The digging issues in our yard and stress of getting that situation resolved were a big negative for us.

To throw some more data/comparisons (as best as I can into the mix):

Mother-In-Law's House Our House (before geo) Our House (with geo)
thermo setting 68 72 71
constructed 1989 1959 1959
style townhouse, 2 shared walls single family cape 1.5 stories single-family cape 1.5 stories
heating method gas heat, elec a/c oil baseboard, elec a/c geo heat/a/c
house feels "cold" to her ?? "nice and warm"
utility bill last month $540 $600 (est.)* $230 ($125 geo, $105 everything else)

* est. based on historical data from previous owners, cost of oil today, heating degrees, etc. utility bill includes elec and gas for Mother In Law, includes oil for our house prior to geo.

I know my system isn't working at maximum efficiency, and one could argue I'm comparing apples to oranges, but her smaller, newer, townhouse cost 2 1/2 times as much as our bigger, older, SF.

AARRGG. I tried to nicely format that previous post and all the tabs collapsed when it posted. SIGH.

Mother In Law- townhouse, 2 shared walls, 1700 sq feet, built in 1989, gas heat, electric a/c, thermo set at 68, says her house is cold. Last utility bill was $540
Our house before Geothermal - single family, 2100 sq feet, built in 1959, oil/baseboard, electric a/c, thermo at 72, oil and elec bill last month would be$600 (est)*
Our house with Geothermal - single family, 2100 sq feet, 1959, geo heat, geo cooling, thermo at 71. Last months utility bill was $230 ($125 for geo, $105 everything else)

When she commented how lovely and warm it was, my wife said, "Come back in the summer to enjoy the air conditioning."
My mother-in-laws' eyes widened and she said, "It does air conditioning too???"

Keep in mind that when someone is trying to sell you a system (of any type) and makes some claim about savings, they are estimating it and it's highly unlikely that they will guarantee or be able to verify any of the savings figures. I've definitely seen some wishful thinking in this area. And of course any option should be compared to the best of other options (like high efficiency gas and/or air source heat pumps), not just to what you currently have or someone else has.

"Hi Joe - You have mentioned this a couple of times, so hopefully I can do a better job of explaining why I will not compare the operational costs of my new system to the old one...... "

OK,
So you don't want to compare it to the old and you can't compare it to new equipment, so.....since "my electric bill is too high" is a comparative statement, what are we comparing it too?
If you are disappointed because it is not $50/mo and your installer said it would be, I can understand that. But that is his fault, not the technology.
You find yourself defending a point that can not by arrived at logically with the data provided.
Good Luck,
J