Huge Electric Bill with Geothermal Heat?
Last Post 28 Jan 2011 08:54 PM by kc. 112 Replies.
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cschmelzUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 12:16 AM
I'd would STRONGLY recommend you get a TED 5000 (google search for link(s)). But basically it is a easy to install real time power monitoring system. I have 2 main electrical boxes and have a TED unit on each, feeding information to my macintosh so I can monitor and graph out power consumption real time. You can even push the data (for free) to google for monitoring and analysis (it is kind of fun, it I log into my iGoogle page, it tells me (power consumption 7% LESS than expected (based on historical norms for my property (or power consumption 11% over historical, etc)

In your situation it could prove invaluable to track down phantom loads, odd draws and what have you...that plus an energy audit (which I'm working on for my place, and I only use 90-100kwH/day)
arkie6User is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 07:39 AM
Your electrical usage seems high to me in summer, fall, and winter.

Maybe I missed it, but does this heat pump have a desuperheater / hot water generator to preheat your hot water?

If so, do you have a buffer tank to store the pre-heated hot water prior to it going to the main water heater tank?

If you have a buffer tank, does it have electrical heating elements in it like a regular hot water tank?

If so, are the electrical heating elements wired up and is the breaker feeding these elements closed?
stanthemanUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 08:53 AM
The update is not good!!!
As of 8pm last night all three stats were satisfied at the following settings:
Bonusroom 50 dF
Bedroom 62 dF
Diningroom 63 dF
8pm meter reading 16759 KWH
8am meter reading 16871 KWH (112 KWH used in 12 hours therefore no solution to the problem)
I woke up at 5 am and the Geo was running with the stats set as indicated above
5am meter reading 16843 KWH
6am meter reading 16857 KWH
7am meter reading 16863 KWH
8am meter reading 16871 KWH
9am meter reading 16877 KWH
10am meter reading 16880 KWH
At 5:55 am all stats were satisfied and Geo system off
6:12am Bonusroom stat called for heat
6:22am stat satisfied and Geo system off

6:36am Diningroom stat called for heat
7:10am Bonsusroom stat called for heat
7:17am Aux Heat on (This I checked by seeing the red light on the control panel ignite)
7:37am Bonusroom stat satisfied
7:48am Diningroom stat satisfied Geo system OFF
 
8:16am Diningroom and Bonusroom stats calling for heat Geo system ON (Turned Bonusroom stat OFF to stop the bleeding)
9:15am Diningroom satisfied Geo system OFF

9:47am Diningroom stat called for heat Geo system ON.
10:45am Diningroom stat satisfied and Geo system OFF.

11:09 am Diningroom stat called for heat Geo system ON.
11:25am Bedroom stat called for heat.
11:45am Diningroom and Bedroom stats satisfied, Geo system OFF.

I have left the Diningroom stat at 63 dF and Bedroom stat at 62 dF

Any comments are welcome

stanthemanUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 09:09 AM
The system does have a desuperheater feeding a hot water tank however that tank is switched OFF and the main tank is switched ON.

Thanks for the comments, keep them coming as you can see I am desperate, I can see the dollar bills flying out the window faster that I can earn them.
ICFHybridUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 09:38 AM
It's like a green nightmare. Good luck with this, man.
geomeUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 09:45 AM
ICFHybrid, good luck with your continued Trolling.
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
chrisbikerUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 09:52 AM
I have the TED 5003. It is a cool tool that may be really helpful in tracking down your problems. There are also other devices you can use.

For your reference, our house is a 22 yr old 3000 sqft colonial, std. 2x4 walls, orig double pane windows, increased attic insul to R50-R60, located in SE PA. All std builder grade construction. It's really cold lately, and our 4 ton Geo is consuming between 20 to 45 Kwh per day over the past two weeks. We have a dedicated buffer for the hot water geo preheat. Our loop entering temp is between 40 and 45 deg F lately. I have shut off the breakers for the emergency heat, as the system can easily keep up.

I think you have a drastic flaw and you need to do some investigating as your consumption is way out in left field. Some things you can check now.

1. Do you have a separate hot water pre heat buffer tank connected to the geo? If not, turn off you hot water heater breaker for 12 hours and see if consumption changes. Your geo may actually be cooling your water tank causing it to turn on if its plumbed wrong or malfunctioning.

2. As others suggested, get some data on your system. EWT, LWT, EAT, LAT. Without data, performance can not be assessed. Post the data. A skinny meat thermometer can be used as a cheap checker and can be inserted into the water loop fittings and pushed into the ducts to get reading.

3. Check your attic duct runs for leakage at tie in connection points and ceiling connections. Look for dirty insulation as a sign of leakage.

4. If possible, shut of the emerg. heat breakers or the local disconnects for them to remove them from the equation.

Data will tell what is going on. Good luck.


stanthemanUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 10:06 AM
EAT I believe is 63 dF and LAT is 98 dF I will have to ask the tech what the EWT and LWT was. The Staging timer for the Aux Heat is set at 40 minutes at which point W1 kicks in, then 15 minutes later W2 kicks in at 100 percent heat. With W1 on it is giving LAT of 108 dF and with W2 on a LAT of 148 dF. It appears to be taking over an hour everytime to heat the main living area thereby using Aux Heat everytime.

I will continue to edit my above posting which displays the consumption data throughout the day.
LoobyUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 10:12 AM
EAT I believe is 63 dF and LAT is 98 dF ... and with W2 on a LAT of 148 dF. [!!!]
Delta-T = 35°F? Has anyone ever changed the air filter?

One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions.
chrisbikerUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 10:17 AM
Ditto on the filter. Air temp rise should be around 20-25 Deg F. Is your LAT of 98F with just the geo running, no e-heat? If so, air may be restricted.
stanthemanUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 10:25 AM
Air Filter was changed Friday last week when they made the first call to attempt to fix this problem. The LAT of 98F is just with the Geo running no eheat, the eheat temps are in my previous posting W1 and W2.
Thanks once again with all the help. I emailed the HVAC company this morning with all this info and they still have not called me. The company I am using is the same company who installed the system 5 years ago. The data I have so far from PPL indicates that the system has never worked on the heating cycle.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 12:15 PM
Stan,
the first response on this thread indicated you should attempt to answer the questions from the troubleshooters check list.
I think everyone's inkling is that you have a very serious envelope or design problem (not a failed part).
If you are working with original installers we are interested in their man j and d calcs/designs as well as infiltration etc.
Eric made the point repeatedly that usage is high in the summer as well. Besides building envelope, delivery (duct or radiant system) design could be at fault.
joe
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
pwagner3User is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 01:35 PM
Did you try turning your Geothermal Heatpump OFF for a few hours while checking your meter readings to see if the electrical use is still increasing??  Just a thought and a easy/cheap test......
geomeUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 01:45 PM
Posted By pwagner3 on 11 Jan 2011 01:35 PM
Did you try turning your Geothermal Heatpump OFF for a few hours while checking your meter readings to see if the electrical use is still increasing??  Just a thought and a easy/cheap test......
Good thought.
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 01:50 PM
"Did you try turning your Geothermal Heatpump OFF for a few hours while checking your meter readings to see if the electrical use is still increasing??"
Good one. I like it
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
stanthemanUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 02:33 PM
joe.ami,
I have some answers to the checklist so far:
Live in South Central PA.
5 ton unit with Carrier Air Handler and Climatemaster heat pump
Closed Vertical loop how deep I do not know at this time and what length.
Cost of KWH is 0.999c/KWH
On Friday EAT was 70 and LAT 98 just with Geo system running.
EWT was 38 and LWT was 32
Hope this is helpful.
cschmelzUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 02:35 PM
Can you tell us what your thermostat set point is? What is the temperature in the living space?

EAT of 60 sure is cold with a HUGE delta temp of air of 38 degrees.

My system is a Climatemaster 27 2 stage. EWT 41.5, LWT 37.2 EAT 68 produces a LAT of 93-94.5dF.

Unless you are running your house VERY cold, are you sure there isn't a major air leak of unconditioned air into your air return system?
joe.amiUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 02:41 PM
Thats a jump out. Attic air could impact heating and cooling costs for instance.
j
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
stanthemanUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 02:42 PM
Technician just installed two switches to allow an option of switching W1 and W2 on and off. At the moment W2 is off and W1 is on. In the current configuration W1 switches on after 40 minutes of geo system running. This brings in a percentage of the aux heat to assist. Tech tested vent outlets with infrared equipment and found 89 F with Geo running and 99 F with W1 assisting geo. That is a drop of about 10 F from what is coming out of the airhandler. Tech climbed around the attic area and opened all the dampers to full.

I realize that this is not going to fix what appears to be a far larger problem. Currently I do not have the one zone switched on so it does not give a true reflection on the efficiency of the system. I realize that there is a larger problem at issue here and adjusting dampers and installing switches will not solve the problem. My challenge is trying to get the problem solved without continuing to run up a huge utility bill.
Thanks for all the comments
cschmelzUser is Offline
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11 Jan 2011 02:42 PM
Posted By joe.ami on 11 Jan 2011 02:41 PM
Thats a jump out. Attic air could impact heating and cooling costs for instance.
j


Not to be dumb but can you define 'that's a jump out"?
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