FYI the building inspector informed me when I requested a copy of the plans that there is a Homeland Security Regulation that prevents him giving me a copy of the plans to this house. When we requested a copy from the previous owners who were involved with the design and drafting of the plans we were informed they did not have copies. I guess nothing in life is easy. The builder (son and brother of previous owners) now lives in Colorado so it may be a challenge tracking him down. What fun this has turned out to be. I guess the only silver lining is it's Friday.

Turning on the Bonus room today so it will be interesting to see how the usage ramps up.

Posted By stantheman on 14 Jan 2011 08:42 AM
FYI the building inspector informed me when I requested a copy of the plans that there is a Homeland Security Regulation that prevents him giving me a copy of the plans to this house.

Sounds like Tom Ridge. 

Have you tried calling the building office and asking if there are any hoops you can jump through (procedures to be followed, form to fill out, etc.) that will allow you to obtain a copy?

geome, he is investigating with the township attorney if there is any way they may release a copy of the plans to me, given I am the homeowner. One would have thought as part of the regulation they would have included with the exception of the homeowner.

Posted By stantheman on 14 Jan 2011 08:42 AM
FYI the building inspector informed me when I requested a copy of the plans that there is a Homeland Security Regulation that prevents him giving me a copy of the plans to this house. .....

That is the biggest line of Bull Stuff that I have heard for a a long time.

FYI the building inspector informed me when I requested a copy of the plans that there is a Homeland Security Regulation that prevents him giving me a copy of the plans to this house.

Uh oh. A smoke screen.

There is nothing about Homeland Security that prevents you from having plans to your own residential property, particularly where you are the building owner of record. The quickest way to find out what you want to know is to take your ID down to the building and planning office ask to inspect their copy on file.

HS has memoranda of understanding with the states and some states have put it into code that document confidentiality is exercised over restricted documents. Typically this includes public buildings of a sensitive nature and even some commercial facilities. Not your home.

Thanks for the info. I intend to continue to ask for the plans until I get them. I plan to go up to the township office.

Interesting problem.
Looking at just the unit w/o auxilliary heat - using our smaller unit as a baseline.
We have a 2.5ton GSHP - pulls 10 amps at 240v=max 2.4kkwh = 57.6kw/24 hours [if it never shut off] = at your electrical rate, should be $5.76 day / $172.00 month.
Since your unit is twice at large, is it safe to say you could double the load? - then just over $300.00/month?

Our unit runs a 2700 sft house in central NV - that includes an uninsulated, cinderblock basement of 840 sq ft - 22 year old home. Thermostat set at 68 day / 67 night. No Auxilliary heat. EWT 42 / LWT 38 - 2800 foot of loop - no additive yet [we are watching temps] - pressurized. Outside air temps this winter average 30 [cold nights, warmer days]. LAT 88-90, EAT 68.

This is our first winter - installed system ourselves last summer. So far VERY HAPPY - have not needed any backup heat - house always comfortable - Unit runs an between 13 - 18 hours a day. Depends on day shunshine. We pay .12kw and December power bill was $153.00 [we do have propane water heater].

Hope this info gives some perspective and useful information. Sorry you are having such expensive issues and that you figure it out. GSHP was the best thing we have done for our house and ourselves.

For the record my 5 ton GSHP (Climatemaster 27 2 stage unit) draws (with circulator pumps) 4000 watts stage 1 and approx 5-5.2kw in stage 2. You can look these values up at given EWT and airflows in the service manuals for the units....

navadarn, your total hydro bill for December was $153.00. $ 153.00 divided by $ 0.12/kwh= 1275kwh/Mth. divided by 31 Days= 41 kwh/day. Hot water supply is also Hydro?/ no propane-ngas on your property? a.) What is your location? b.) What is the squft of your Home? c.) Who is your Hydro Provider?

Some answers stated above. 2700 sq ft. 840 of that is unfinished i.e. walls are uninsulated, basement. We actually use the space though. Our hot water is propane - that is why we went with the GSHP - it was really expensive to heat the house on propane. A couple of years ago it got up $4.00 gallon. Our heater was not efficient - put in when we built the house 22 years ago. Our power has actually gone down in price over the last year. Was over .13 now .118 [with all little extras they add] - Bill was actually $134.87 and that was for 33 days AVG KWH/day 34.4 [total power bill]. Last year we used 637 KWH - 19.3 KWH/Day for same month. That was probably using wood and small electric heaters in BRs and back up when we weren't home. The $153.00 was a credit as I was paying $200/month, expecting a larger bill for winter. We have been pleasantly surprised at how well things have run. The last few years we have used wood mostly. Forced air heater set at 50 and some electric as as a back up . Wood kept the house nice, but not cheap and a lot of work. We have our own well and septic. This also includes a 1300 sq ft apt that is kept at 50 [a more efficient FA heater] and my husbands shop. My husband is very handy and we did alot of reading - both on this site, Youtube, and the other GSHP sites. We put in 3000 feet of 3/4" HDPE - only count 2800 since some of it is run together in the trench to get to the house. and in the house to GSHP unit. We have a FHP we bought used - FHP terrible to get info from, but we have determined the unit produced in 2003 We put an hour meter in on 11/24/2010. Since then we have used 605 hours to 6 am today. And actual amp load was 9.3 [compressor, pump and blower], we did get up to 9.5 when the water was warmer. During the summer [we started the unit in July and obviously used it for cooling then] and it was a bit over 10 amps. Our house is a stick built over basement. Standard insulation for the time. Older dual pain windows. Some extra attic insulation. Due to the growth of our trees, we do not gain a lot of heat from the sun. This is nice for the summer though. The set up is int he basement [air tied to existing ductwork]. He put a stainless steel purge/surge tank in, 4 lines purged with a garden hose - independently to remove air and debris - no joints in the field, straight runs [no slinkys], under pressure to about 21 psi in /25 out. Hope this answers your questions.

Central Nevada is a large state. What is your closest City to your location?/

Thank you.

We are about 40 miles east of Lake Tahoe.
38 degrees N
Nevada is a fairly large state - central NV narrows the area down :-)

It appears that most units seem to use 1kw/ton.
If this holds true, your 6 ton unit should not use more than $432.00 a month at .10/kw. 24/7.
Heat pump only, no strips.
Anything else in your house pulling the watts?

I havent read all the posts...........but 5 ton for 4000 sqft sounds like it doesnt have enough power and is running all time how big are your resitive strips was it designed around the cooling loads and not the heating loads. was it designed for cooling and the resitive to make up the difference in heating season. I would hace a IGSPHA certified installer perform a manual j

Posted By Steve on 20 Jan 2011 10:36 PM
I havent read all the posts...........but 5 ton for 4000 sqft sounds like it doesnt have enough power and is running all time how big are your resitive strips was it designed around the cooling loads and not the heating loads.

Shame you didn't.
joe

Posted By stantheman on 12 Jan 2011 06:16 PM
Now that I have stopped the bleeding a little I would like to ask how much should the geothermal cost to run in the middle of winter given that it is a 4000sf home with a 5 ton unit. At the moment the only cost comparison I can make is with my old home in Northern MD which was 5000sf and peaked with a utility bill of $540 in the middle of winter. Should I expect to see a cost saving based on the fact I was using 2 gas furnaces for that home? Any thoughts??

For a rough comparison I'll tell you what I have and what the bills are like. I have a 3300 sq.ft. house with a 4 ton (I think it's 44k btu) open loop geothermal system for Zone 1 which is downstairs. I have a 2nd zone which is a 3 ton Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP) for the upstairs. The Geothermal has Aux heating strips disabled, the ASHP has no AUX heat. When the systems are off entirely, such as October when it's cool enough to not have the cooling on and warm enough to get by without heat my bills are about $150 (800 Kwh) a month. During the winter when the temperatures are above 40 degrees my bills average around $250 to $300, (1500 Kwh to 2000kwh). When the temperatures drop below 30 degrees, I shut off my inefficient ASHP and use a space heater in the master bed room, my bills are anywhere from $350 to $480 (2200 Kwh to 3100 Kwh)  depending on how cold it is. The highest bill ever was $480 last year. Since I've been relaying on a space heater entirely this winter I have slightly lower bills, despite the fact the average temperature has been lower this year. During the summer months, the system costs around $220 to $280 to cool the house (August 2010 was my highest bill ever in the summer, $315 (1550 Kwh)  If you were to deduce the base electric usage of $150 a month, I have cooling bills ranging from $70 to $130 and heating bills ranging from $100 to $330. I would think your average bills would be close to these numbers given that you have a more efficient system, but a larger house in the same geographical area. 

It would seem to me that a 5 ton system for a 4,000 sq ft house is too small, given that I have a combined total of 7 tons for a 3300 sq ft house and according a home energy audit it's close to as tight as it can be before outside ventilation is required. But it all really boils down to the heat/loss figures, you could have lots of solar gain that makes up for any heat loss. 

Another thought comes to mind, I didn't see it suggested by anyone else, get the electric company to test your meter to see if it's properly calibrated. It's highly unlikely this is the problem, but it is possible for an electric meter to not be properly calibrated and charge you too much for electricity. You could also ask them to replace it entirely, but if the meter is faulty, you give up any chance to get your past bills adjusted.
 
      

Posted By joe.ami on 21 Jan 2011 10:29 AM

Posted By Steve on 20 Jan 2011 10:36 PM
I haven't read all the posts...........but 5 ton for 4000 sq ft sounds like it doesn't have enough power and is running all time how big are your resistive strips was it designed around the cooling loads and not the heating loads.

Shame you didn't.
Joe

Well you have to admit it was a lot of reading, it's far easier to skip to the end and put in your 2 cents, even if it's been suggested by 10 other people already.

Posted By TechGromit on 26 Jan 2011 11:23 AM

Posted By joe.ami on 21 Jan 2011 10:29 AM

Posted By Steve on 20 Jan 2011 10:36 PM
I haven't read all the posts...........but 5 ton for 4000 sq ft sounds like it doesn't have enough power and is running all time how big are your resistive strips was it designed around the cooling loads and not the heating loads.

Shame you didn't.
Joe

Well you have to admit it was a lot of reading, it's far easier to skip to the end and put in your 2 cents, even if it's been suggested by 10 other people already.

A young man I know would return my calls annoucing he didn't listen to my voice mail. Yet when he would call me he'd leave lengthy messages. I finally told him one day that he was conveying that his time was to valuable to be wasted on what I had to say, yet his message was so important that I should take the time to listen to him.
j

When the temperatures drop below 30 degrees, I shut off my inefficient ASHP and use a space heater in the master bed room, my bills are anywhere from $350 to $480 (2200 Kwh to 3100 Kwh) depending on how cold it is.

OK, and this works because you are heating a much smaller space (only the MBR) with simple resistance heat as opposed to the entire upstairs with the 3 ton ASHP, right?

Do you have a way to separate the two "zones" (like a door on the stairs) or how do you keep the downstairs heat pump from heating the upper floor? I live in a fairly mild climate, but when it drops below 30F, I find that even poorly insulated and leaky homes need nearly no heat on the second floor.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 26 Jan 2011 11:48 AM

When the temperatures drop below 30 degrees, I shut off my inefficient ASHP and use a space heater in the master bed room, my bills are anywhere from $350 to $480 (2200 Kwh to 3100 Kwh) depending on how cold it is.

OK, and this works because you are heating a much smaller space (only the MBR) with simple resistance heat as opposed to the entire upstairs with the 3 ton ASHP, right?

Do you have a way to separate the two "zones" (like a door on the stairs) or how do you keep the downstairs heat pump from heating the upper floor? I live in a fairly mild climate, but when it drops below 30F, I find that even poorly insulated and leaky homes need nearly no heat on the second floor.

The ASHP has no resistance heat period. It was obviously not installed correctly, ASPH are usually installed with AUX heat so when the temperature drops below a certain temperature the outside compressor shuts off and the blower uses resistant AUX heat. This thing never shuts down, unless the thermostat is turned down or off.  I plan to continue to use it until it dies then replace it with another open loop Geothermal unit. It going to cost roughly 15k to replace it, that's $14,999 more than I have at the moment.   

There is no "door" from the upstairs to the downstairs, it's roughly a 4 degree difference between two of the upstairs bedrooms at the top of the stairs and the downstairs. The Master bedroom is upstairs and around the corner in the hall way, it gets minimal heat from the downstairs, thus I need a Space heater to keep it warm at night. I tried turned the downstairs geothermal system up to 72 degrees at night, but it really doesn't keep the master bedroom warm. I'd say there's about 6 to 8 degree difference between them.