WF_Inc.

Your Ohio representative recommended I use "Don." This was when I was having problems last year immediately after Geothermal Solns when out of business and stopped returning my phone calls. Your rep told me that Don was very good, but he was a bit unorthodox and a bit rough. However he really knew his stuff and would be able to get to the bottom of the problem.

Don tried several things. One of them was to replace some sort of bulb - it is at the end of a bit of tubing. The bulb was insulated. Don removed the insulation (or didn't install it). Don told me that the bulb sometimes freezes up and shouldn't be insulated. Don quit working on the Envision when Waterfurnace told him my loop was inadequate. He, like others, didn't believe it and said that without Waterfurnace support he couldn't do anything else for me.

On Nick's 2nd visit they decided the bulb needed to be insulated. They installed the insulation, the Envision faulted the next morning, and several mornings thereafter.

When Nick told me they were not coming out to work on my unit they said it was because Waterfurnace was not paying them.

The Envision has not worked properly since it was installed 14 months ago. Waterfurnace has recommended dealers to me to repair it, I have followed those recommendations. Are you now saying I should pay one Waterfurnace recommended dealer to undo the work of another Waterfurnace recommended dealer?

Your unit seems to be too complicated for your dealers to diagnose. That is why I wanted a Waterfurnace tech at the house. I suspected the Waterfurnace tech may know more than the GeoPro Master Dealer.

Thanks for your attention.

Come on, WaterFurnace. Step up to the plate and do the right thing here by helping this guy resolve this issue.

The 4th contractor to work on my Waterfurnace Envision, "Williams", was here this morning. They think there is a bad expansion valve. The temperatures and pressures on the pond loop looked right to them, but there is not enough heat extracted.

Shortly after they left the unit faulted on WaterFlow. I called them, they told me to power cycle the unit when this happens (of course I have been doing this). It is about 35F outside.

Williams told me there would be an $89 charge before they came out. I understand they need to get paid - they did not sell the unit to me. I don't understand why I have to pay additional charges to get a Waterfurnace working when it never worked correctly since installation.

I bought a Waterfurnace to save money. It has never operated correctly, I have taken lots of days off work to meet contractors - all of whom seem competent, the Waterfurnace Envision runs lots of time on electric which is much more expensive and less environmentally friendly than geothermal, and now I am paying the contractors $89 a visit to try to repair something that has been wrong since the unit was delivered. I am not saving money.

An electric furnace would cost less to install and be easier to repair. But long term savings with geothermal would save the most money if it worked correctly.

Today, at the International Builders' Show I started looking for Geothermal systems with factory support.

Headed to SC next week if you need a consult. Should pass close.

Alton, WF does support it's dealers. It is the dealer that has let the client down here. No one takes greater interest in the training of their dealers which would presumably ensure the best out-come, but at the end of the day, they just wanna sell product like everyone else.

You will not find a company that supports their product better, though many will do as well.

If you wanna ensure the best result for your customers, then you should start with the dealer, and recommend whatever brand they sell.

Joe, Thanks for the advice. My problem is that I design and consult on homes throughout the Southeast, rarely do I ever do a second home in the same city. It is difficult to find a reliable, knowledgeable installer when I only do one home in an area.

As far as reliability goes, is it me or does it seem that geothermal tends to have A LOT of problems compared to the "old fashioned" forced air systems?

Posted By Lbear on 09 Feb 2012 09:57 PM
As far as reliability goes, is it me or does it seem that geothermal tends to have A LOT of problems compared to the "old fashioned" forced air systems?

Go over to ANY Natural Gas, Oil or LP site and you would think there is a lot of problems with those units also.

Bergy

GreenSWOhio,

We have spoken with both of your contractors. According to your first contractor, they did contact our technical support staff and found your unit to be operating within manufacturer’s specifications. The issue that caused concern was the 24oF entering water temperature. With the mild temperatures we have been experiencing, this would lead us to question if there may be an issue with the loop system. If there is an issue with the loop, it needs to be found and addressed, and is not covered under the WaterFurnace warranty.

We have also spoken with your second contractor. They have informed us that they are not interested in getting involved with a job that appears to have installation or service issues. Installation and service issues are not related to the manufacturing of our equipment; therefore, would not be covered under the WaterFurnace warranty.

It is unfortunate that your installing contractor is no longer in business. We will make a site visit to your home to ensure your WaterFurnace equipment is operating properly; however, we must visit with a WaterFurnace dealer. Once you have found a WaterFurnace dealer to work with, please have them contact us to discuss scheduling the visit. Issues that are not related to the manufacturing of the unit should be addressed. Any cost incurred to remedy these service or installation issues would be between you and your contractor.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Jim,

According to both contractors, the issue is outside of the manufacturing of the equipment. As of right now, we have offered to make a site visit and are waiting on GreenSWOhio to choose a WaterFurnace dealer to work with. We are more than happy to work with this homeowner and the contractor he chooses to work with to find a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Alton,
all the more reason not to spec a product. Spec size and design and tell your customer to pick the best local contractor and go with their product.
there is not a geo manufacturer out there that will go in to a home and fix a problem if the dealer lets the customer down. WF gets themselves in a little trouble by endorsing their dealers and offering the suggestion of superior training and experience (though their dealer may be brand new), but aside from that they do not offer more or less end consumer support than any other manufacturer.

Posted By Bergy on 10 Feb 2012 08:09 AM
Go over to ANY Natural Gas, Oil or LP site and you would think there is a lot of problems with those units also.

Bergy

In my 38 years, I have lived in homes with forced air and also geothermal heat pump designs. The geothermal has ALWAYS had more breakdown and issues. The forced air systems have always proven to be more reliable and easier to maintain.

When you are pumping water through lines, just by its inherent design, you are going to have more issues.

I am not against geothermal but when you look at cost vs. ROI, geothermal does not win in most books.

Posted By Lbear on 10 Feb 2012 08:08 PM

Posted By Bergy on 10 Feb 2012 08:09 AM
Go over to ANY Natural Gas, Oil or LP site and you would think there is a lot of problems with those units also.

Bergy

In my 38 years, I have lived in homes with forced air and also geothermal heat pump designs. The geothermal has ALWAYS had more breakdown and issues. The forced air systems have always proven to be more reliable and easier to maintain.

When you are pumping water through lines, just by its inherent design, you are going to have more issues.

I am not against geothermal but when you look at cost vs. ROI, geothermal does not win in most books.

Most geo units we install are forced air...

"When you are pumping water through lines, just by its inherent design, you are going to have more issues."

Is that a condemnation of all hydronic heating systems...if so, that's painting with an awfully broad brush.

Posted By engineer on 11 Feb 2012 11:23 AM
"When you are pumping water through lines, just by its inherent design, you are going to have more issues."

Is that a condemnation of all hydronic heating systems...if so, that's painting with an awfully broad brush.

I am not condemning all hydro systems, I am not even condemning geothermal heat pumps, I am just stating that the more complex a system is and the more moving parts, the greater for the chance of problems. Also, the cost of the install and maintenance of geothermal does not bring the best ROI.

As with a lot of these "green" systems, when you really the crunch the numbers, it can take 15+ years to even break even.

WF_Inc.

Reply to your 2/10/12 9:15 a.m. post.

You state the the contractor reported 24F water incoming on the pond loop. Their paperwork says:

28F in and 24F out. Not 24F in.

Is 28F in too cold? They told me it was within spec.

Again, thanks for your attention.

WF_inc.

In reply to your 2/10 9:16 a.m. note.

The contractors told me while they were on-site that the loop was OK - as I relayed above.

One of them told me that your tech support told them my loop was inadequate. However when I called the Waterfuirnace customer support line I was told the loop was adequate.

Your pre-recorded message advises that telephone calls may be recorded. If this call was recorded you can check the recording and verify that I was told my loop is adequate by your support personnel.

Joe

in reply to your 2/9 offer to consult. I am working with another contractor. However if you are passing close by, can take a look, and we can work something out then I'd be glad to meet you. I will send you contact info in a "private message" on this website.

thanks,

All

While I want my unit fixed, I don't want to encourage people to choose "non-green" solutions. Geothermal makes a lot of sense. I had a Waterfurnace brand furnace for about 20 years that was almost problem free. There were no problems with the loop, the water pumps, the filters were easy to change, the thermostat was easy to configure to turn off the electric backup It was a fantastic unit and I expect I saved much more than the purchase price.

When I went shopping for a replacement I preferred a Waterfurnace brand unit based on my experience with the first unit. At this point Waterfurnace's support model is not working for me. But I expect to get the problem solved and eventually be happy that I replaced a geothermal unit with a geothermal unit.

This is still young technology, it will get better as it evolves. Buying Green today is making an investment in our future.

GreenSWOhio

lbear,
what data are you employing to support your position? ARI for instance suggests geo lasts longer than conventional furnaces. What is your sample size.
All things break, but when a geo system saves my propane customers 2K a year, they are glad to fix it.

A recent customer with a system I didn't install was looking for alternatives to his geo which was costing him "hundreds a year" in maintenance. After I load calc'ed the house and showed him what the alternatives would cost him to run he stayed with geo.....and happily pays to maintain it knowing that he is saving a ton of money.

Your comment that the payback horizon is 15 years, is grossly exaggerated at best.
j

greensw,
will look at ramifications to our already long drive. i don't want to muddy the water for other contractors but sometimes a fresh set of eyes doesn't hurt. how far from the interstate are you (in minutes)?