Posted By engineer on 20 Feb 2012 10:09 PM If you and WaterFurnace can't collectively come up with a dealer contractor within 100 miles able to work through the issues without making errors such as the ones I cite above, then it is time for both parties to throw in the towel.

I can't afford to throw in the towel. I don't want to heat the house by burning wood. And I can use the Envision as an electric furnace. The Envision has spent a lot of time in electric mode. The Envision seems to work well in electric mode; but it is expensive to operate.

Posted By a0128958 on 20 Feb 2012 11:06 PM
I'd get some temperature monitoring on the refrigerant line right at the Freeze Sensor, and see if indeed the FS is locking out the system at 15° F.  This would be a pretty easy way to sort out if it's a water vs refrigerant loop problem, and to sort out if some of the DIP switches are set correctly.

Best regards,

Bill

One of the techs showed me the thermistor was operating as expected. He disabled the waterflow center by disconnecting the electric. When the water temp dropped to 15F the unit switched off the geo thermal. I don't remember how he measured the water temp.

Posted By engineer on 22 Feb 2012 09:28 PM
The gist of the last few posts seems to be that temperature logging will save the day...maybe so, maybe not.

An intermediate option might be a Lascar USB temperature logger such as model EL-USB-TC-LCD, about $100

This is affordable. What is the strategy? I assume I place the probe in either in coming or out going loop ports. After collecting temperatures how do I determine if the loop or the furnace is at fault?



I did not expect to have to do this sort of work when I bought a Waterfurnace. But I will if it helps identify the problem.



WF-Inc: does me doing this void the warranty?

I just talked to the current contractor, "William". It has not been cold outside and my Waterfurnace Envison does a good job keeping the house warm when its not cold outside. The unit recently has only experienced 1 Waterflow fault on 2/20 when the outside temp was about 30F.

William's guys were at my house on 2/8. They measured incoming water temp at 27.1F, outgoing at 23.7F; Pressure in at 48.5; out at 44.0 and calculate 12GPM for my closed pond loop. They told me the refrigerant pressure was too high. They thought bleeding some off might be a good idea. On their paper report they recommended a new TXV & filter. They told me they would capture the refrigerant before installing the valve and then weigh in the correct amount. The boss does not agree with those recommendations. He called me the next day. He seems to think the loop needs to replaced.

"William" tells me:
- the incoming water temperature of 27-28F is too cold. Incoming should be 32-35F from the pond loop.
- the 12GPM waterflow his guys measured is too fast for a 4 ton unit. It is within range but the ideal is 10GPM. Valves can be adjusted to get 10GPM.
- He suggests I run the furnace in Stage 2 only mode, and see if it water faults then. If it does not water fault then the loop is implicated. Otherwise the refrigerant is implicated.
- Replacing the refrigerant is very expensive.

He also explained that with a 2 stage unit the loop does not have time to recover since stage 1 is on all the time. At 27F incoming water temp he says there is ice forming around the loop.

I think: there has been something wrong with the Envision since it was installed at my house; the loop was adequate for 20 years - it is very unlikely that it went bad the day the new Envision was installed; 2 companies and Waterfurnace told me that if the loop was adequate for the old 4 ton Waterfurnace it would be adequate for the new 4 ton Envision; I don't want to replace the loop for thousands of dollars and then have another waterfault; I was told that if I bought an Envision I would pay a premium price for a premium product - that was half right - I'd like to get premium support.

It would be very helpful to me to know from WF_Inc.:
1) Is 27F incoming from the pond loop too cold?
2) Do you concur with the strategy of running the Envision in Stage 2 for a couple weeks to implicate either the loop or the refrigerant circuit?

GreenSWOhio

One need only tape the probe of the independent thermometer on the line near the thermistor in question to fairly closely measure the temperature. The test of cutting water off and watching unit trip when the leaving refrigerant temperature dropped to 15 is a valid test and indicates thermistor, control board and DIP switches are likely set up and working properly.

System should NOT trip with loop temp in 20s unless refrigerant charge is low or there is a TXV or filter problem, i.e. something causing the leaving refrigerant thermistor to see a temperature of <15*F for more than 30 seconds. Find out what is causing that condition and the problem will be solved.

The difference between 12 and 10 GPM is inconsequential and should not be further pursued. It is utter nonsense that loop fluid moving slightly FASTER through the heat exchanger transfers LESS heat.

I do not divine the diagnostic value of operating in stage 2 vs stage 1. I don't give a fig whether ice, Jello or dry hpped India Pale Ale forms around the loop lines...27*F EWT is perfectly OK. While I agree that EWT in the mid 30s would provide higher capacity and COP, 27* EWT should NOT cause system to trip.

If after many hours of continuous run times the leaving loop water temperature is in the teens that would cause a trip and indicate loop problems. A Lascar with probe taped to leaving loop line would ferret this out.

I don't know what you consider "very expensive" but replacing the refrigerant should not be overly so. Perhaps $30 per pound for 5-6 pounds plus reasonable labor charges associated with recovering the old refrigerant. Assuming the existing refigerant is not contaminated, it ought to be able to recovered into a clean evacuated cylinder and weighed back in along with any extra needed.

The diagnosis of "refrigerant pressure too high" is inconsistent with leaving refrigerant low temperature trips. I don't understand why they are blaming both the loop and high refrigerant pressure. If the high refrigerant pressure is on the high side, that could indicate any of low air flow, clogged filter, dirty coil and in any event should be separately investigated.

WF needs to work closely with this crew or maybe find you some other bozos. That the "boss" and "tech" aren't getting along doesn't bode well for the present lot.

Good luck!

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 24 Feb 2012 11:27 AM
Reply to docjenser:

I do not have details on the loop design. The original installer from 1989 is no longer in business. I know the original loop worked well for 20 years, up to the day I got the new Envision.

I also don't know why the incoming water temp went from 42 on 1/27 (mean outside temp = 37F) to 27 on 2/8 (mean outside temp = 33). I had my own digital thermometer in the outgoing port on 1/28 and the outgoing temp was 30F. The unit ran on electric backup a lot this past January.

The efficiency may have increased a lot in the last 20 years, but my house & insulation are the same. I don't need more BTUs to heat the house. I expect there is silt on the loop. But it worked fine with the old unit.

Newer units have a much higher efficiency, meaning they have the same capacity, but the ratio of heat extracted from the ground heat coming from the compressor running (e.g. electricity used has changed very much. Sore more from the ground, less from the compressor means same total output but much more load on the loop.
Lets say the old unit had a COP of 3 (20 years old) and the new one a COP of 5, and you need about 30,000 BTU/H for yourhouse at 30F outside (4 ton, 1st stage). With the old system, 20,000 BTU/H come from the loop, and 10,000 BTU/H come from the compressor (electricity). The new one, 24,000 BTU/H come from the loop, and 6000 BTU/H come from the compressor (COP of 5). Same total output. So the new unit puts 20% more load on the loop.

Posted By docjenser on 26 Feb 2012 01:36 PM

... So the new unit puts 20% more load on the loop.

No one's made this comment so far.  Impressive to see the example cited.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 24 Feb 2012 01:06 PM
I just talked to the current contractor, "William". It has not been cold outside and my Waterfurnace Envison does a good job keeping the house warm when its not cold outside. The unit recently has only experienced 1 Waterflow fault on 2/20 when the outside temp was about 30F.

William's guys were at my house on 2/8. They measured incoming water temp at 27.1F, outgoing at 23.7F; Pressure in at 48.5; out at 44.0 and calculate 12GPM for my closed pond loop. They told me the refrigerant pressure was too high. They thought bleeding some off might be a good idea. On their paper report they recommended a new TXV & filter. They told me they would capture the refrigerant before installing the valve and then weigh in the correct amount. The boss does not agree with those recommendations. He called me the next day. He seems to think the loop needs to replaced.

"William" tells me:
- the incoming water temperature of 27-28F is too cold. Incoming should be 32-35F from the pond loop.
- the 12GPM waterflow his guys measured is too fast for a 4 ton unit. It is within range but the ideal is 10GPM. Valves can be adjusted to get 10GPM.
- He suggests I run the furnace in Stage 2 only mode, and see if it water faults then. If it does not water fault then the loop is implicated. Otherwise the refrigerant is implicated.
- Replacing the refrigerant is very expensive.

He also explained that with a 2 stage unit the loop does not have time to recover since stage 1 is on all the time. At 27F incoming water temp he says there is ice forming around the loop.

I think: there has been something wrong with the Envision since it was installed at my house; the loop was adequate for 20 years - it is very unlikely that it went bad the day the new Envision was installed; 2 companies and Waterfurnace told me that if the loop was adequate for the old 4 ton Waterfurnace it would be adequate for the new 4 ton Envision; I don't want to replace the loop for thousands of dollars and then have another waterfault; I was told that if I bought an Envision I would pay a premium price for a premium product - that was half right - I'd like to get premium support.

It would be very helpful to me to know from WF_Inc.:
1) Is 27F incoming from the pond loop too cold?
2) Do you concur with the strategy of running the Envision in Stage 2 for a couple weeks to implicate either the loop or the refrigerant circuit?

GreenSWOhio

I can't think about anything else but the TXV making your lockdown symptoms. Low water temp fault is tripped by a thermistor on the suctions side when it goes below 15F, which your one does. A TXV not opening correctly would show low refrigerant on the gauge for the suction line, driving the temp down on the suction line, tripping the low source flow thermistor, and indicating a low source flow error. Adversely, on the discharge side it would indicate high pressure, making one believe that the system is over charged. Just having (2) 3ton W-W units with failed TXVs with exactly the same symptoms. Wonder if there is a batch of faulty TXV valves out there. "William" is a bit BSing you. Manufactures specify 3 gpm flow for closed loops, so 12 gpm is right on target. Minimum EWT is 20F. While 27F is not ideal, it does not cause lockdowns. Also blaming it on the continuous run of a 2 stage HP in 1st stage is bogus. The load on the loop is the same, and a pond loop has the highest heat transfer per linear foot. You loop might be short, but should not cause the symptoms you are having.

The techs who were on-site thought it was the TXV; their boss disagreed. His advice seems to be that I replace the loop and that will probably fix the problem.


I would like to have a test that would either implicate or exonerate the loop. Someone suggested I get a thermometer with a memory. Could I measure the temp of the EWT (entering water temperature?) and keep a log of it? Then the next time the Envision faults use the EWT to determine if the EWT is too low or if something is wrong with the Envision.


I don't want to install a new loop and then have another Waterfurnace Waterfault.


Thanks, GreenSWOhio

Their boss somewhat disqualified himself with his comments/arguments. What do you do if he is wrong, which appears to be likely.

We can go on for another 5 pages of poor service from the local companies or you can begin to take some measurements.
$500 for a WEL or less for a TED will give us (or the local guys) the information we need to troubleshoot your equipment.
Or you can buy new loops, re charge the system, replace the TXV et al until you find the actual problem.
EWT in the high 20's vs low 30's is consistant with a higher efficiency geo on old 4 ton loops.
j

Just to be clear, I am not complaining about poor service from local companies. Several times I mentioned that the techs seemed competent, although at least one was unorthodox.


I am concerned that Waterfurnace provides no safety net for their customers. My Envision has never worked properly. Waterfurnace tells me they want to help, but they can't because I can't find someone willing to work with them. The Waterfurnace Envision seems to be too complicated for the local techs to diagnose. Maybe it has a kinked coil or something that is just not covered by the textbooks. And I feel like I am being told by Waterfurnace that I am responsible for paying a dealer to fix their manufacturing error.


I don't want to be a furnace tech. If anyone reading this is in SW Ohio and would be willing to work with me, and ideally work w/ Waterfurnace, then let me know, send me a private message if you wish.


It may turn out that the 2 dealers who told me the loop would be adequate, and Waterfurnace who told me the same thing, were just wrong and the loop needs to be replaced. I am open to that, but I don’t want to spend thousands of unplanned dollars to replace the loop and then have the Waterfurnace Waterflow fault the next time it gets cold.


If no one is available to work in SW Ohio, would the “Lascar USB temperature logger such as model EL-USB-TC-LCD” suggested by engineer provide enough information? Do I have to order a specific probe or will the Lascar have everything I need to insert the sensor into the ports? Waterfurnace – does this affect my warranty?


Thanks,


GreenSWOhio

Waterfurnace, like all manufacturers, provides the parts and a labor allowance as part of their warranty. Plus technical support. So they pay you 5 hours of labor, plus driving time, plus maybe 1 hour for diagnosis, plus some refrigerant. However, in the last failed TXV valve we invested 58 hours of labor and driving time until we had the problem located and fixed. It ruined our week. I do it immediately for one of our customers, I had a markup with the equipment, and that markup pays for overheads like additional hours beyond what the manufacturer pays you. But that is also the reason why you cannot find anyone else to come in and accept what Waterfurnace would reimburse them for. Your dealer should do all this, but he is out of business. One more reason to charge enough to stay in business, provide that kind of service to the customers and accept the labor reimbursement from the manufacturer, so a customer is not left in the dark like you are now.




Right now you do not have a choice. Get a digital thermometer which is calibrated and get your loop temps for 12 hours in 2 hours interval. You already know your flow, so after 12 hours you know pretty well if your loop is OK. I would argue that you know this pretty much already.

Then you need to get someone knowledgeable to fix you TXV. WF will gladly ship a TXV and the filter/dryer, and pay for 6-8 hours of labor.

I would think that if you 'had' to add more loop, since it's in a pond and not buried under ground that it wouldn't cost too much to add to it?

I have bids starting at $6,000. That *is* a lot of money for me.

That is one of the reasons I don't want to "try" a new loop to see if it will fix the problem.

However, the 30 day forecast for SW Ohio indicates cold temperatures are over. The Envision does a good job heating the house when it is not cold outside.

GreenSWOhio

I ordered the Lascar USB temperature logger model EL-USB-TC-LCD and am having it over-nighted to my place. It looks like it comes with a probe that can be inserted into the incoming water port or the outgoing water port.

Which temp would be most useful?

thx

From Engineer 2/25/12, 10:15pm

"If after many hours of continuous run times the leaving loop water temperature is in the teens that would cause a trip and indicate loop problems. A Lascar with probe taped to leaving loop line would ferret this out".

ChrisJ

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 28 Feb 2012 02:58 PM
I ordered the Lascar USB temperature logger model EL-USB-TC-LCD and am having it over-nighted to my place. It looks like it comes with a probe that can be inserted into the incoming water port or the outgoing water port.

Which temp would be most useful?

thx

Leave it in the outgoing line. A normal performing loop should be in the mid to upper twenties, but even in the lower 20s would not be too concerning.

I agree.

I hadn't thought of using the Lascar's probe in a Pete's port grommet. It should work with a drop of soap or KY and reasonable care.

Using EWT/LWT service port or taping an instrument to a line will not impact your warranty.

You need to start holding service agents accountable. Those that charged you to do things that others are changing back should be asked for refunds. They have likely charged you more than WFs profit margin.

I will ask since my comment seemed to go unnoticed before, has anyone checked wiring harnes through which this switch communicates with board?