Here in Arkansas, the last time I priced well drilling it was $5-$8 per foot for drilling the hole. Well casing was extra.

Posted By t5800512 on 19 Sep 2013 05:45 PM
... So would you still recommend WaterFurnace?

I'm aligned with everyone else here on this subject.  Find an expert, and then use whatever equipment the expert likes to use.

You cannot do better than Eldon Hampton here in the DFW area.

Best regards,

Bill

It does look like you may have some borehole heating. I say that because I don't think that the outside air temp should have much effect on underground temperatures; at least under 10 feet in three years. The big question is have you seen a noticeable drop in efficiency. That would good reason to make sure to use the ground loop for heating in the winter (rather than NG as I suggested earlier).

Maybe spacing the bore holes out more than 20 feet would help. Or maybe figuring a way to pump more cold down the ground loops in the winter.

Carrier/Bryant/Comfortaire/Century.....all Climatemaster. Series 7 in Docs opinion may require additional ground loopage.

Note that borehole heating is also effected by groundwater (if any) flow rate and direction. See here where 12% additional loop was required.

Manufacturer charts will show the change in efficiency caused by higher/lower EWT.

Your well driller may be able to provide samples of water for testing that are likely to be similar to what you will get from your own well.

Jonr, I can see how that would be true for open loop. But I believe in my area the wells are mostly dry with only a couple layers of sand/water. I mean no disrespect, just trying to learn. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

Hey Joe, where can I find more information about the WaterFurnace 7 series needing more ground loopage? I'm having no luck at all with the search function.

Posted By t5800512 on 21 Sep 2013 12:08 AM
It does look like you may have some borehole heating. I say that because I don't think that the outside air temp should have much effect on underground temperatures; at least under 10 feet in three years.
 
The big question is have you seen a noticeable drop in efficiency. That would good reason to make sure to use the ground loop for heating in the winter (rather than NG as I suggested earlier).

Maybe spacing the bore holes out more than 20 feet would help. Or maybe figuring a way to pump more cold down the ground loops in the winter.

I'm not sure, yet.

Outside air temp (OAT) is the single most influencer of EWT assuming a well designed and functioning system.

OAT affects the amount of heat that must be removed from the structure, or added, each day.  It's this amount of heat that must be rejected to, or extracted from the earth.

I'll put together another chart, again showing annually the avg EWT since '09, this time including amount of heat removed from, or added to the structure, annually.  I suspect a chart like this will show that each year, since '09, I've had to remove more heat, in cooling mode, than the preceding year, since OAT has done this.  But, we'll see.

I have not seen any drop in efficiency so far.  I measure cooling capacity, heating capacity, EER and COP, and all continue to run at WF spec.  I've got some charts that show this.

The more space you put between the boreholes the more opportunity you have for each one to not affect the other.  Still, heat moves slowly through the earth, away from the boreholes.  An infinite amount spacing between boreholes won't guarantee avoidance of borehole field heating if the loop isn't designed right in the first place.

Best regards,

Bill

Hey Bill,

I have been looking into the WaterFurnace 7 series. I see that it will monitor a lot of information, kind of like you have on your website. Did you add the meters to your to your WaterFurnace, or were you able to tie into it's control system?

By the way, I'm going to do my best to come look at your setup on the 5th.

This is kind of a funny forum site. Now that it is putting in my paragraphs, it has stopped sending me email when someone responds to this thread. And yes, I have the Subscribe box checked, but nothing. I wonder if I unchecked it, posted, and then rechecked it?

I only know info about WF from conversations like these. Bill's monitoring system is a WEL (web energy logger) and is not tied to onboard monitors.

Hey Joe, thank you for responding. I have looked the WEL website. The starter kit is $555. I saw where Bill said it cost around $800 to setup the WEL like his.

I was reading about the WF Aurora controller and I have to say I'm impressed. Add an optional module, the Aurora WebLink (AWL) device, and you can put your monitoring information on the internet. I have not seen what it would look like, but I still prefer Bill's WEL monitor because I also have a solar array that I wound like to include in the monitor.

A second look at the borehole field heating subject:

(Quick summary: I have 2 WF Envision units, 3 and 5 ton for a total of 8 tons, both 2-stage variable speed; both, when running, always run in 1st stage; I have a closed water loop, no antifreeze, 8 boreholes, each 300' deep, 1" HDPE pipe.  Holes are spaced 20' apart.  I'm in a southern climate (Dallas) where cooling is very dominant, versus heating).

Starting with the 1st full year of data, my avg annual EWT was 70.9°F for '09.  For '12, the last full year of data, my avg EWT was 73.2°.  Each in between annual year has been higher than the previous.



At first glance this may suggest borehole field heating.

But, how hot the borehole field gets is dependent on how much heat is dumped (rejected) in to it.

On an annual basis, I removed 68,600 KBTU from the structure in '09.  In '10 I removed 79,300 KBTU, in '11 it was 86,500, and in '12 it was 73,100 KBTU.  These numbers will be dependent on outside temp, tstat settings, shading of the house, opening and closing of drapes and doors, etc.

In my case, the only significant variable is outside temp.  Everything else is about constant over the years, with the exception of added insulation in '11.

Avg outside temp, on an annual basis, has risen every year since I started collecting it.



Here we see it's 66.8° for '09, and increases every year through '12, at 69.5°.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By mtrentw on 16 Sep 2013 12:22 PM
t580012,

You indicate the 3 Ton you had never cut off on the hottest days. That statement alone does not rule out a 3 ton. The question becomes whether the 3 ton was able to maintain the house at the thermostat setpoint. If on the hottest days it did, then the 3 ton may be just what the doctor ordered. Continuous run is not a bad thing if it meets the load requirement. Less cycling of your plant equipment can be beneficial.

Trent

An efficient duct system highly influences whether or not you actually do get 3 tons of cooling capacity out of a 3 ton compressor. 

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By t5800512 on 18 Sep 2013 03:58 PM
This is a great forum with so many helpful people.

So, I have decided to go with closed loop because I don't want to deal with potential heat exchanger/well issues. Yes, I have read that the return wells can become stopped up by the same deposits that can collect in the heat exchanger.

So, I'm thinking closed loop with the addition of a water well. I'm hoping I can get the water well at a bargain if I have them all done at the same time.

I've had my closed loop system for six years now.  So far, zero maintenance.

I do have a connection from the loop to domestic cold water, to maintain the static pressure of the water loop at about 60 psi static all year round.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By t5800512 on 19 Sep 2013 05:45 PM
... A friend (Chris) on the Solar Panel forum shared the link to your system yesterday. I'm so impressed. I have got to get me one of those monitoring systems. I installed Solar earlier this year and still check Enlighten every day. I have however finally stop going up on the roof every day to dust off my panels. :p

Interestingly, I had Mark Johnson out yesterday and another driller you may have heard of to day. His name is Frank Klufa. I liked them both, but so far, Frank has given me the best bid. I desperately want a water well for irrigation, but have settled on closed loop for the exact reasons you mentioned.

So Bill, have you been able to see any heat island effect as you continue to pump heat into the ground year after year. I spoke to the driller today about that. He said he thought the temperature buildup was mainly a problem when inadequate length ground loops were used. He went on to say that 300 feet per ton is usually long enough to allow the heat to dissipate.

So would you still recommend WaterFurnace? Have you had any issues with either of your Heat Pumps? Are your systems split, or self contained. I'm thinking of going with a split system because I think it will be an easier install in my existing house.

What solar panel forum?

I use Web Energy Logger, like many others here.  I design and develop measurement and verification systems, mostly for commercial purposes, including energy monitoring and logging capabilities.  I use http://www.welserver.com .  Here's an example of a commercial implementation I'm doing now: http://www.welserver.com/WEL0640 .

I'm not familiar with Johnson Drilling pricing.  But I do know their quality and professionalism is unmatched.

WF stuff is good.  But it's only as good as your installer. 

My systems are self contained, as shown in my diagram: http://www.welserver.com/WEL043 .  I like that I have nothing outside, and that the refrigeration loop is self contained.

Docjenser here on this forum I think is the expert with WEL systems.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By t5800512 on 20 Sep 2013 11:48 PM
Hey Bill,
I spent some time today talking to Eldon. You are right, he really knows his stuff. It sounds like he may be able drill my wells for the price I had in mind. I have been planning on putting in the Bryant split GSHP because I can purchase it wholesale. But Eldon about has me convinced to go with the WaterFurnace 7 series. I'm hoping to hear back from him soon. I'm interested to see how much more the WaterFurnace will cost me.

Does anyone know who build the Carrier/Bryant system? I'm wondering if it is ClimateMaster.

Eldon often uses Johnson Drilling.  He may have agreed upon pricing with them.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By joe.ami on 21 Sep 2013 10:40 AM
Carrier/Bryant/Comfortaire/Century.....all Climatemaster. Series 7 in Docs opinion may require additional ground loopage.

That is for heating loads and heating dominated climate. Since it is so much more efficient, it has lesser compressor heat and extracts more heat out of the loop, thus needs more loop.
The opposite is the case for loop in cooling dominated climate. Since the 7 series produces lesser compressor heat, lesser heat needs to be rejected in the loop, thus it can have shorter loop in cooling dominated climate.

Posted By t5800512 on 21 Sep 2013 05:37 PM
Hey Bill,

I have been looking into the WaterFurnace 7 series. I see that it will monitor a lot of information, kind of like you have on your website. Did you add the meters to your to your WaterFurnace, or were you able to tie into it's control system?

By the way, I'm going to do my best to come look at your setup on the 5th.

Everything I do is outside of the equipment.  That way there are no warranty issues. 

This is a key reason I don't monitor pressures at my personal residence (do do this on commercial units).  The WEL does accommodate 4-20 ma and/or 0-10 VDC sensors. 

I have to give a speech in Fort Worth on Sat. the 5th.  So I've lined up a number of volunteers to run the tour site for me.  Very unfortunate schedule problem, but, I had committed to the speech months ago, before tour date had been set. 

See http://www.ntreg.org - many homes and businesses have signed up for the tour.  Best DFW solar tour is coming.  I'm one of few with geo and solar PV and other things.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By t5800512 on 22 Sep 2013 06:10 PM
Hey Joe, thank you for responding. I have looked the WEL website. The starter kit is $555. I saw where Bill said it cost around $800 to setup the WEL like his.

I was reading about the WF Aurora controller and I have to say I'm impressed. Add an optional module, the Aurora WebLink (AWL) device, and you can put your monitoring information on the internet. I have not seen what it would look like, but I still prefer Bill's WEL monitor because I also have a solar array that I wound like to include in the monitor.

WEL is $410 for IP appliance plus web site, no monthly recurring charges, ever.  Add to cost what's needed for sensors.

Electricity gets expensive to measure.  About $250 for a single phase unbalanced 240 VAC service entrance, or for two single phase balanced 240 VAC circuits (i.e. 2 geo units), or for 3 single phase 120 VAC circuits, or for one 3 phase circuit, any voltage.

Temp is inexpensive, about $15 each.

Best regards,

Bill