I know Mitsubishi and Daikin have an option for a High static pressure Ducted Air Handler.

Mitsubishi High static pressure ducted air handler
http://www.mitsubishipro.com/en/pro...units/pvfy

Daikin High static pressure ducted air handler
http://www.daikinac.com/content/ass...i-Fold.pdf

What I would like to know is if its possible to use motorized dampers on the ducts to create 3 or 4 zones? I am guessing that if it is possible, it would require 3rd party controllers.

I do not want multiply air handler scattered through out the home as Mitsubishi and Daikin market for zone conditioning. I want to use dampers on the duct runs to control the zones. Sure Carrier and other American manufactures offer these options, but I need a compressor unit like the Mitsubishi or Daikin which will power down to 15% to better adjust to the needs of each zone.

So if a Mitsubishi and Daikin unit can be setup with zone dampers this would obvious be a huge plus for many home builders.

Seems like the Mitsubishi Canadian division has a duct damper zoning system.

http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en...ssary.html
http://www.mitsubishielectric.ca/en...alogue.pdf



At less we know they have a damper controller (Zone Panel) and thermostat that will communicate with the Zone Panel for damper control.
Maybe I could have the Zone Panel and thermostats smuggled into the states?

I have been told that Carrier will be releasing a new unit soon that will power down to 20% of capacity. If this is true than the other American HVAC companies will follow and should have more choices.

If you look at the cost associated with a 2500 sf + home with mini splits the additional copper refrigerant lines and condensation drain lines and all the scenarios that could and will go wrong, I will stick with the American tradition, and go with ducts with automated dampers.
I also think the expense will be higher for mini splits, and the long term maintenance will also be very high.

Besides if you look at overall efficiency ratings on lets say a Carrier Greespeed, they have these mini split units beat by a good margin. The reason why they are more efficient could be due to larger surface area of the condenser coils on American heat pumps units.

So to sum up my conclusion, I believe there are more cons than pros for the mini split path.

I have been told that Carrier will be releasing a new unit soon that will power down to 20% of capacity.

Will the blower power down too?

and all the scenarios that could and will go wrong

Like what?

I also think the expense will be higher for mini splits

Based on .....?

and the long term maintenance will also be very high

Due to what?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 09 Mar 2014 11:46 PM

I have been told that Carrier will be releasing a new unit soon that will power down to 20% of capacity.

Will the blower power down too?

and all the scenarios that could and will go wrong

Like what?

I also think the expense will be higher for mini splits

Based on .....?

and the long term maintenance will also be very high

Due to what?

Will the blower power down too?
Variable speed blower motors are standard in Carrier Greenspeeds

Like what?
You have 6 or 7 Air Handlers in a mini split system Versus just 1 in a ducted Air Handler ....
You have 6 or 7 refrigerant lines lets say a estimate of 200 lf to 250 lf  Versus just (1) 40 lf in ducted Air Handler ....
You have 6 or 7 condensation drain lines Versus just 1 in ducted Air Handler ....
You have 6 or 7 condensation drain water pumps Versus just 1 gravity condensation drain line in ducted Air Handler ....
Parts are expensive and hard to get.

Based on .....?
See........ Like what?

Due to what?
See........ Like what?

Where do you get maintenance free dampners and ducts that don't normally leak? What comparison efficiency @ the air handlers,registers?

Posted By TLP on 10 Mar 2014 05:45 PM
Where do you get maintenance free dampners and ducts that don't normally leak? What comparison efficiency @ the air handlers,registers?

Replacing a servo motor on a damper is cheap and no big deal at all. Duct work is no problem either, if you use the best methods and materials. Besides my ducts will be in the conditioned space so a little leak here and their is not a major issue. But I don't plan on having enough leakage to mention of, because I will be doing the install myself and testing the ducts for leakage before the sheet rock goes up.

On the other hand chasing down 200+ L.f. run of refrigerant lines though out the house hunting for leaks in a mini splits system is a Major problem, the demo crew will have a blast ripping your sheet rock off the ceilings and walls..... ..... Or how about condenser coils in the air handlers leaking ..... you might have 6, 7, 8 air handlers scattered through out the house .... ..... How about the condenser pumps going out and leaking water in your home. How about quality whole house air filtering system? you don't get that with mini splits.

It is silly to defend all the obvious miserable problems a whole house mini split system can bring to a home owner.

The mini split marketing guys have done a very good job convincing the public its great and cheaper way to go.

As for efficiency I'm not going to even go there because their SEER/HSPF/EER/COP ratings are listed on the manufactures websites.


Mini splits systems have a purpose, just not in most new residential home construction!

You have 6 or 7 Air Handlers in a mini split system Versus just 1 in a ducted Air Handler ....

It's a stretch calling it an "air handler'. The entire thing can be easily replaced.

You have 6 or 7 refrigerant lines lets say a estimate of 200 lf to 250 lf Versus just (1) 40 lf in ducted Air Handler ....

Hello? An entire ducting system is how much? I got quoted over $20,000.

You have 6 or 7 condensation drain lines Versus just 1 in ducted Air Handler ....

It's a piece of tubing that drips out or into a drain.

You have 6 or 7 condensation drain water pumps Versus just 1 gravity condensation drain line in ducted Air Handler ....

You're joking, right? You can buy an entire head for less than a guy charged me back in 1992 to replace one condensate pump.

Parts are expensive and hard to get.

Probably not. See above. You'd have to show us where parts are an issue for installed minis.

As for efficiency I'm not going to even go there because their SEER/HSPF/EER/COP ratings are listed on the manufactures websites.

Maybe we should wait and see how the Carrier unit you are promoting stacks up against the installed base of mini splits.

Posted By ricky_005 on 10 Mar 2014 07:44 PM


It is silly to defend all the obvious miserable problems a whole house mini split system can bring to a home owner.

The mini split marketing guys have done a very good job convincing the public its great and cheaper way to go.


Mini splits systems have a purpose, just not in most new residential home construction!

Building science experts would disagree with you and provide you with the scientific data to show you that you are wrong in your assertions.

If any "marketing guys" are convincing anyone, it's the ducted HVAC marketing guys that are making tens of thousands of dollars per home install.

I'm sorry but you are wrong again. Mini splits have a purpose, and that purpose is in new residential home construction. Ducted systems are inefficient and carry a heavy energy and install $$ penalty. That's the fact.

As for the building science, prove it Lbear ....... don't just quack off comments, like lay down some facts.

Tens of thousand of dollars for duct work hu...... Who's doing your duct work, Union workers?

As I said they have a propose...... If your building a mud hut in the jungle or a addition to a existing home, yes I would say a mini split would be the way to go ..... You build a 2500 + S.F. you would have to be nuts to strictly use only mini splits

Ricky - you made ALOT of general statements with no data. If you want to get scientific about it and real there are valuables you can perhaps find for mini-splits vs FA systems, Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF), Mean Time To Replace ( MTTR)..those reliability and maintenance hour values take opinion out of the equation. In order to make the statements and conclusions you are making you need a comprehensive design and field study which you did not post.

MFG out of the unit efficiency does not account for pressure and temperature drops of the system. The problem ducted has a history of loss, better if in conditioned space, but the drops are still less with mini splits. Dampners cause losses, flow and temp when fully open, combined with ducts especially long ones made of metal. How much cost and how available are electronic dampener motors, what is the MTBF, MTTR, lets see some numbers.

Posted By TLP on 11 Mar 2014 05:26 AM
Ricky - you made ALOT of general statements with no data. If you want to get scientific about it and real there are valuables you can perhaps find for mini-splits vs FA systems, Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF), Mean Time To Replace ( MTTR)..those reliability and maintenance values take opinion out of the equation. In order to make the statements and conclusions you are making you need a comprehensive design and field study which you did not post.

MFG out of the unit efficiency does not account for pressure and temperature drops of the system. The problem ducted has a history of loss, better if in conditioned space, but the drops are still less with mini splits. Dampners cause losses, flow and temp when fully open, combined with ducts especially long ones made of metal. How much cost and how available are electronic dampener motors, what is the MTBF, MTTR, lets see some numbers.

No general statements, its just general common sense...

If your building a mud hut in the jungle or a addition to a existing home, yes I would say a mini split would be the way to go

I've been inside $5 million dollar luxury villas that use minisplits. You would be well served to spend some time with some previous threads here before making sweeping statements that are unsupported with data.

Posted By ricky_005 on 11 Mar 2014 05:17 AM
As for the building science, prove it Lbear ....... don't just quack off comments, like lay down some facts.

Tens of thousand of dollars for duct work hu...... Who's doing your duct work, Union workers?

As I said they have a propose...... If your building a mud hut in the jungle or a addition to a existing home, yes I would say a mini split would be the way to go ..... You build a 2500 + S.F. you would have to be nuts to strictly use only mini splits

Toning it down a couple of notches would be nice. There is no need to be acting like the way you are.

I recommend reading some of the case studies and articles on Green Building Advisor regarding ductless mini splits. There is a lot of scientific research about ductless minis.

Posted By Lbear on 11 Mar 2014 09:28 AM

Posted By ricky_005 on 11 Mar 2014 05:17 AM
As for the building science, prove it Lbear ....... don't just quack off comments, like lay down some facts.

Tens of thousand of dollars for duct work hu...... Who's doing your duct work, Union workers?

As I said they have a propose...... If your building a mud hut in the jungle or a addition to a existing home, yes I would say a mini split would be the way to go ..... You build a 2500 + S.F. you would have to be nuts to strictly use only mini splits

Toning it down a couple of notches would be nice. There is no need to be acting like the way you are.

I recommend reading some of the case studies and articles on Green Building Advisor regarding ductless mini splits. There is a lot of scientific research about ductless minis.

Serious valid arguments should be taken into consideration, not discredited. Discrediting of such important arguments just shows your stubborn, unethical agenda, or just flat out ignorant on the subject.

Serious valid arguments should be taken into consideration

Such as how it's all "common sense"? In particular, I was amused by your claims that minisplits were more expensive because they have to have 6 or 7 condensation lines. Either you don't know much about ductless minis or you don't care to. I highly recommend you cover some of the historical threads lest you look the shill. Shills don't fare too well here.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 11 Mar 2014 08:56 PM

Serious valid arguments should be taken into consideration

Such as how it's all "common sense"? In particular, I was amused by your claims that minisplits were more expensive because they have to have 6 or 7 condensation lines. Either you don't know much about ductless minis or you don't care to. I highly recommend you cover some of the historical threads lest you look the shill. Shills don't fare too well here.

Your arguments don't hold water ICFHybrid ..... your like rambling here and there about meaning less things evading the reality of the facts laid before you.....

Everyone has there own opinion, some are partially correct, some are better than others, others are like parrots that only repeat what they see and hear and have no clear understanding of the world around them. Some have higher standards than others .... and understand how to make use of technology and apply it in the correct situation that it was intended to be used for. Unfortunately God didn't give everyone common sense and a ability to reason, if you have it, how about use it.

If you choose to follow poor substandard advice, its your freedom to do so. ..... there are plenty of half baked ideas out their in the Wild Blue yonder for the naive to feed on.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 11 Mar 2014 08:47 AM

If your building a mud hut in the jungle or a addition to a existing home, yes I would say a mini split would be the way to go

I've been inside $5 million dollar luxury villas that use minisplits. You would be well served to spend some time with some previous threads here before making sweeping statements that are unsupported with data.

I have been in $5 million dollar homes that use double hung windows, 2x4 construction, etc.  Just because someone builds or sells an expensive home doesn't mean that it is designed well or used a very efficient or a very cost effective solution.

I have been in $5 million dollar homes that use double hung windows, 2x4 construction, etc

I can't do much about that problem; I was speaking to the "mud hut" issue. Specifically, I was thinking about some places in Europe that used Italian interior designers. They use ductless minis quite a bit in Europe because of their energy efficiency. They've used them for decades.