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ricky_005
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| 18 Mar 2014 01:40 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Mar 2014 09:26 AM
If you knew what the CFM output is per TON on high velocity central air systems, you would delete your misleading ignorant post. No, probably not. As envelopes improve, the heating and cooling requirements improve, too. At the extreme, you get homes that can be heated with a very small amount of heat. The smaller amount of heat you need to move, the smaller the amount of air you need to move it. At some point you get down to low velocity ventilation systems which move far smaller amounts than ducted heating systems.
I hope you didn't spend too much time on the patent. I don't see much need for a combo vent. And, I hope you at least used a spell checker on the application.
You don't see a lot of things bone head... |
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 18 Mar 2014 03:41 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Mar 2014 01:22 PM
Although I think mini-splits are great, most of my clients still prefer the central systems primarily because of aesthetics. I think people gravitate towards what they grew up with and what they are accustomed to. What I have been seeing is that when people are introduced to something new (and better), they tend to like it and that allows their world to change a little.
You have found people who think that a mini split is aesthetically pleasing? Quite a few of my friends are building homes, and I haven't encountered anyone who wants to see mechanical systems. they want all of that to be hidden. Of course, that isn't the same as a minisplit, but I would be surprised that very many people find a minisplit to add aesthetic value to their house. |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 18 Mar 2014 04:46 PM |
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My read is that Alton was saying that most folks prefer the concealed mechanicals of central systems more aesthetically pleasing than mini splits. Anyhow, that is our experience. Most folks don't want to see or hear their heating system at all. Some folks don't want to feel any moving air either. And some folks like warm floors. Everyone wants their heating system to be inexpensive, last forever, and have low or zero operational cost. |
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 18 Mar 2014 05:38 PM |
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Posted By sailawayrb on 18 Mar 2014 04:46 PM
My read is that Alton was saying that most folks prefer the concealed mechanicals of central systems more aesthetically pleasing than mini splits. Anyhow, that is our experience. Most folks don't want to see or hear their heating system at all. Some folks don't want to feel any moving air either. And some folks like warm floors. Everyone wants their heating system to be inexpensive, last forever, and have low or zero operational cost.
agreed, that is why icfhybrid's comment was confusing. i don't think anyone likes the look of minisplits, and some people on this forum who want them even admit that they aren't very attractive. |
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Bob I
Veteran Member
Posts:1435
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| 18 Mar 2014 06:28 PM |
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Imagine if we were just starting to string wires on telephone poles - what an outcry there would be. Now,, a hundred years later they are just a part of the landscape - still ugly, but expected and accepted. I've always hated baseboard heat - hugely ugly, and floor grates aren't much better.
the ideal is Passive House where the heat is delivered through the HRV ducts and the small grilles on the wall. Some day..... |
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| Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant |
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Bob I
Veteran Member
Posts:1435
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| 18 Mar 2014 06:28 PM |
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Imagine if we were just starting to string wires on telephone poles - what an outcry there would be. Now,, a hundred years later they are just a part of the landscape - still ugly, but expected and accepted. I've always hated baseboard heat - hugely ugly, and floor grates aren't much better.
the ideal is Passive House where the heat is delivered through the HRV ducts and the small grilles on the wall. Some day..... |
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| Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 18 Mar 2014 06:49 PM |
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ba_icf: Thank you for clarifying your examples- it's much more complicated than the straw-man argument I thought you might be making.
New-ness doesn't necessarily mean the unit or it's mechanicals were done in such a way that keeps it super comfortable, even in expensive bulidings. Real estate pricing in large cities in Asia & elsewhere have far more do do with the location than the construction. If the mini-split was over-cooling to the point of discomfort it sounds like it wasn't well matched to the load. West facing windows can really cook a Singapore or Taipei high-rise condo unit no matter how expensive the unit was, and there aren't a whole lot of really good shading solutions for that.
The aesthetics of mini-splits vs. duct grilles vs. panel radiators etc, isn't really that important. If you really can't stand to look at the thing you don't have to, especially in high-R house where the location of the head doesn't matter. The noise factor is more important to me than the visual noise, but I'll accept that different people will have different reactions. Variable speed air handlers on ducted systems can be about as quiet as first-rate mini-split too, but the lower you can make the load, the quieter it all gets, provided the system is sized right.
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Alton
Veteran Member
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| 18 Mar 2014 07:19 PM |
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Dana,
If you can hear the central air system, then it is inefficient. I lived in one new home for a few years that required the volume of the TV to be turned up while the system was running. Oversized units with undersize ducts can be noisy. |
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Residential Designer &
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 18 Mar 2014 08:04 PM |
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Regardless of the system, proper design and installation is the key. I have a mini and think it is beeuutiful! But that is just me. I hide all of my heating system terminals, including high, low and minis as best I can. The nice part about the radiant floor, wall and ceiling business is not having to say your sorry... |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 18 Mar 2014 09:05 PM |
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In high end subdivisions all utility are underground .... you just hope the junction boxes and transformers aren't in your yard. It's still better than having ugly utility cables strung up on poles.
Now that we have established that mini spits are for people that have low aesthetic standards etc..... I have my Ideas, but how do you deal with a ducted central air system when the blower ramps down below the ducts CFM design? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 18 Mar 2014 09:18 PM |
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but I would be surprised that very many people find a minisplit to add aesthetic value to their house. Oh, they absolutely do, especially after they see them in my home. ;-) Every single person I know is proud of their minisplits and LOVE them. One of the reasons might be they know they are green and the units save heating energy. One family just couldn't afford to replace their broken down heat for the longest time and got one out of desperation because it was affordable. They love it now too. I first was introduced to them by a haughty count or viscount or something like that in Europe, way back. They were pretty proud of the green technology they installed in their....well, it was a castle, really. I later saw more in Italy in some fine villas. More recently, I have used a friend's chalet in Whistler. Awesome place. Radiant heated stone floors in the mud room where the ski gear hangs and bathrooms and ductless minis for the rest. |
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 19 Mar 2014 01:01 AM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Mar 2014 09:18 PM
but I would be surprised that very many people find a minisplit to add aesthetic value to their house. Oh, they absolutely do, especially after they see them in my home. ;-)
Every single person I know is proud of their minisplits and LOVE them. One of the reasons might be they know they are green and the units save heating energy. One family just couldn't afford to replace their broken down heat for the longest time and got one out of desperation because it was affordable. They love it now too. I first was introduced to them by a haughty count or viscount or something like that in Europe, way back. They were pretty proud of the green technology they installed in their....well, it was a castle, really. I later saw more in Italy in some fine villas. More recently, I have used a friend's chalet in Whistler. Awesome place. Radiant heated stone floors in the mud room where the ski gear hangs and bathrooms and ductless minis for the rest.
can you show us a picture? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 19 Mar 2014 09:13 AM |
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can you show us a picture? Of what? |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 19 Mar 2014 09:29 AM |
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The key word words where "they have issues, they just need to re-engineer their product to adapt to new high performance home designs" That could mean a low velocity central air system or what Ever..... G"
Are you proposing the "Low Velocity HV" system? |
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Joe Hardin
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 19 Mar 2014 10:15 AM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Mar 2014 09:13 AM
can you show us a picture? Of what?
i think the only thing mentioned in the that whole post was minisplits and how beautiful they are, so i am asking to see a beautiful picture of your mini split. i think it was pretty obvious. also, in another thread you talk about laying on radiant floors, so your mini splits aren't heating the whole house. you didn't specify the amount of radiant heat in your house, but it is probably safe to say that your radiant is your main heating source, and the mini splits are secondary. having two heating sources totally doesn't jive with your argument that mini splits are just as good as central heating for whole house heating. why would someone add an expensive radiant system to their efficient and cost effective mini split system if it was heating their whole house really well? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 19 Mar 2014 12:30 PM |
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so your mini splits aren't heating the whole house. Matter of fact, they are. They heated the entire house during winter while it was under construction. Never even turned all four on. but it is probably safe to say that your radiant is your main heating source, and the mini splits are secondary. Apparently, it can go either way. why would someone add an expensive radiant system to their efficient and cost effective mini split system if it was heating their whole house really well? Actually, the minisplits were added for the air conditioning. I'm sorry to be negative, but you seem to like to draw a lot of unwarranted conclusions about other things and people. Could it be that you are wrong about your preconceived minisplit notions, too? so i am asking to see a beautiful picture of your mini split Find your own ductless porn. There are more than enough online examples if you have an honest interest. |
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 19 Mar 2014 01:12 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Mar 2014 12:30 PM
so your mini splits aren't heating the whole house. Matter of fact, they are. They heated the entire house during winter while it was under construction. Never even turned all four on.
but it is probably safe to say that your radiant is your main heating source, and the mini splits are secondary. Apparently, it can go either way.
why would someone add an expensive radiant system to their efficient and cost effective mini split system if it was heating their whole house really well? Actually, the minisplits were added for the air conditioning.
I'm sorry to be negative, but you seem to like to draw a lot of unwarranted conclusions about other things and people. Could it be that you are wrong about your preconceived minisplit notions, too?
so i am asking to see a beautiful picture of your mini split Find your own ductless porn. There are more than enough online examples if you have an honest interest.
You said that your minisplits were used for heating and cooling, and that was why they were better than window units. You gave me that information, so now you are saying that they are only used for air conditioning. What am I supposed to believe? Again, if they heat the house so well, why would you add a secondary heating system. I don't have preconceived notions about minisplits. I think they are unattractive. That is my own opinion, and I don't want them in my house. I never considered them. However, I am questioning all of the propaganda on them. If you want to use them and you think they are great for your situation, then that's great. However, if someone has to orient their doors, rooms, stairs, etc so that they work well, I think they are not for most people. Most people want a layout based on their foot traffic, not based on their HVAC needs. I am questioning your continued promotion of them, but you are inconsistent in nearly every post. You talk about efficiency and cost and ROI, but when we provide examples to the contrary, you go into a tangent. You say that yours are beautiful, and everyone that has seen yours loves them. The ones that I have seen are ugly, and I can't believe anyone would say that they are beautiful, but maybe the ones that you installed are different than all of the other ones that I have seen. I don't really care, but you never seem to like to provide any hard data with your insinuations. In another thread, you question why someone would need radiant with mini split A/C, and then you are doing the same. |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 19 Mar 2014 02:56 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 18 Mar 2014 07:19 PM
Dana,
If you can hear the central air system, then it is inefficient. I lived in one new home for a few years that required the volume of the TV to be turned up while the system was running. Oversized units with undersize ducts can be noisy.
There's no news there! The idiot who designed the last incarnation of ducted HVAC on my house married an overpowered First.Co air handler with both a hydronic coil and an AC coil to the original circa 1923 duct work, then proceeded to pump 180F water at the hydronic coil with a 5x oversized cast iron boiler. Then a 5 ton R22 SEER10 compressor was married to the AC coil. That's 5 tons of rated cooling for a ~2400' house in a climate with less than 500 CDD, and a 1% outside design temp of 83F, and is in the shade of tall trees on the SW hill from about 2 PM on. The true peak cooling loads on the house (at temps 10-15F above the 1% design temp) are probably no more than 1.5 tons. The air handler was strappable for either a high or low speed, and according to mi esposa (who owned the house before I met her) when they first fired it up it was strapped for high speed and sounded as if the ducts were going to come apart! It's still pretty obnoxious at low speed (don't need to crank up the TV, but it's annoying), and was noticeably better after mastic-sealing all of the ductwork that was accessible (which is probably about 3/4 of it.) The original tin-work is surprisingly good shape, and apparently now even quieter after duct sealing than it was when the somewhat less oversized 1960s-vintage gas-furnace predecessor of the hydro-air was the heat source. I have no idea what the original heat source looked like- there is a section of the basement slab that clearly had been the floor of a coal bin, and a capped-off stub of 2" iron pipe (that reeks of heating oil with the cap off) coming through the foundation on a different wall. Based on the sizing the ducts always needed an airhandler, this wasn't one of those convective hot-air systems. I totally get that the current AC is not efficien. During my tenure I've retrofitted most of the house with hydronic heat using a low-mass modulating burner (the cast-iron beast went to the scrap yard) using the air handler as the second-stage "Hail Mary" zone for when it's below +10F and the radiant floors won't keep up without either the wood stove burning or the hair-handler. Feeding the air handler 125-130F water out of the buffer tank it's good for about 40KBTU/hr heating, and has exit temps in the tolerable-if-slightly-tepid 95-105F range. For the summertime AC most of the power use is from the basement dehumidifier, but I'll run the ridiculously oversized 5-ton central air maybe 15-25 hours in a season (depending on the season.) Even at the crummy low efficiency and less-than-perfect cooling comfort it isn't financially viable to rip it out and start over. Even at 18cents/kwh we're talking less than $50/year for running the central air the way we are (as opposed to the ~$75-125/annum that's going into powering the dehumidifier.) A single 1-ton mini-split would probably handle both the radiation shortfall issues and the whole house AC, but there's no financial incentive to go there just yet. There's better "payback" in both dollars and comfort on continuing to spend the real money on upgrading the building envelope. |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 19 Mar 2014 03:44 PM |
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He's a very good example of how marketers can really screw up a weak minded person ba_icf
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 20 Mar 2014 02:21 AM |
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You said that your minisplits were used for heating and cooling, and that was why they were better than window units No. I never said that. You really like jumping to conclusions. You talk about efficiency and cost and ROI, but when we provide examples to the contrary, you go into a tangent. I haven't seen you provide anything of value. In another thread, you question why someone would need radiant with mini split A/C, and then you are doing the same.
You'd have to show us where you thought I did that. |
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