watch the video, looks like two hours???

Looks simple to me maybe you don't agree.

U tube search how to install a ductless mini split by this old house

No need to get defensive!

Posted By gosolar on 16 Apr 2015 08:02 PM
watch the video, looks like two hours???

I've seen professional companies install them and it takes longer than 2 hours and that is with a crew of 2 trained guys. Just getting the indoor wall unit mounted and running the refrigerant/condensation line out the back and then routing/wrapping the lines down to the compressor unit, getting the compressor mounted, wired up with electrical, connecting the refrigerant lines, etc. takes a few hours. Most installs I have seen from start to a completely buttoned up install takes around 5-6 hours with a 2-man crew. That is without any complex or troubleshooting requirements.

Can a DIY person do it? Not a novice but someone who moderate to advanced skills can but I don't see them doing it in 2 hours. More like 8 hours by themselves, probably longer. If they run into problems then without the proper HVAC equipment (Gauges, pressure testing, etc) they will be in big trouble.

Then of course, as mentioned, the risk of losing the 7 year warranty. Most manufacturers will not sell the units directly to homeowners. Usually they are NON-authorized resale companies on the net that do this. Sometimes they are even Chinese knock-offs with illegal trademark infringement issues. A lot of stuff coming out of China is hit or miss and quality can be complete garbage.

I was quoted between $6-$7K for my two units, installed. Installation would have taken about a day, but a last-minute change required drilling a 3" hole through ICF. I provided the electrical hook-ups and wall penetrations. I doubt a decent central system would have been much cheaper.

I've never seen a mini-split installed in 2 hours. I have seen just refrigerant line sets for a mini-split take as much as 2 hours to put in place.

With the power already roughed to where it's needed, the refrigerant lines roughed-in place, and the wall bracket or pad mounts already installed, a competent ductless installer can probably hook up, charge, test, and fully commission the thing in about 2 hours, maybe less. If you're competent to do all of the preliminary work it's possible to only pay a couple hours of certified tech time to get it commissioned in a such a way that it's still covered by warranty, but it requires a cooperative and competent contractor/tech. If you expect the CONTRACTOR to warranty anything beyond what the manufacturer offers you'd probably have to hire them for more than just the final charging & test.

Look at this way I buy a unit for say $1200, install in a day if you say it takes that long fine, these come pre charged.

I watched the video again, maybe 4 hours. Mount a bracket 15 min, drill a hole thru wall 5 min, mount unit to slab 20min, run & connect tubing 30min, wire it up 20min.  few coffee breaks ? min
This is not rocket science. 

No warranty, ok it fails call for repair if needs to replace one half or the other (can't be both?) $600 I'm out.

The installer wanted $3-4 thousand to put it in, sorry my math says I'm way ahead on the game in fact it can be replaced several times over before I would lose.

The better question is why does the dealer need to make that kind of profit for a days work?
Sure he has overhead so does every business.

But if I can buy it for $1200 that dealer likely pays $900 +-, $2500 for a day.  

Not sure if some doctors or lawyers make that kinda money .

The average mechanical contractor works on a 25% gross profit, net is generally in the low single digits.

The internet has not improved the profit margin of the trade or the quality of their work. There is direct relationship.

All very true Gosolar, but not everyone is good at math and also good with their hands. And those companies that advocate/support DIY HVAC design/installation don’t often get treated too kindly either. More often, warranties are not worth the paper they are printed on as the company that made it won’t be around if you ever need it.

Or they just find a reason that the repair isn't covered some place in the small print.

Posted By gosolar on 18 Apr 2015 01:19 PM
Look at this way I buy a unit for say $1200, install in a day if you say it takes that long fine, these come pre charged.

I watched the video again, maybe 4 hours. Mount a bracket 15 min, drill a hole thru wall 5 min, mount unit to slab 20min, run & connect tubing 30min, wire it up 20min.  few coffee breaks ? min
This is not rocket science. 

No warranty, ok it fails call for repair if needs to replace one half or the other (can't be both?) $600 I'm out.

The installer wanted $3-4 thousand to put it in, sorry my math says I'm way ahead on the game in fact it can be replaced several times over before I would lose.

The better question is why does the dealer need to make that kind of profit for a days work?
Sure he has overhead so does every business.

But if I can buy it for $1200 that dealer likely pays $900 +-, $2500 for a day.  

Not sure if some doctors or lawyers make that kinda money .

Listen to the voice of experience:
For my office loft I installed one of these cheap units avaiable on the internet, I paid about $800. for a Ramsond heatpump mini split and installed it in about 6 hours.
it was noisy, the internal blower never shut off and it lasted about 2 years and then no one could or would repair it
to replace it I opted to let my HVAC contractor supply and install a Daikin mini split for $2,200. , the best money I ever spent .... it is whisper quiet, inside and out, properly cycles off and I have peace of mind with a 1 year labor/ 5 years parts warranty

Posted By cmkavala on 19 Apr 2015 07:50 PM

Listen to the voice of experience:
For my office loft I installed one of these cheap units avaiable on the internet, I paid about $800. for a Ramsond heatpump mini split and installed it in about 6 hours.
it was noisy, the internal blower never shut off and it lasted about 2 years and then no one could or would repair it
to replace it I opted to let my HVAC contractor supply and install a Daikin mini split for $2,200. , the best money I ever spent .... it is whisper quiet, inside and out, properly cycles off and I have peace of mind with a 1 year labor/ 5 years parts warranty

Excellent advice. Those internet mini split purchases are typically Chinese knock off units. Major distributors will not sell directly to home buyers and they will not use the web. They have licensed distributors. Getting the peace of mind of having a REAL unit with a real professional installer that will be backed with a warranty is well worth the $2k.

One ends up paying twice as much in the end because the unit goes out in 2 years and then it has to be replaced again. No free lunches and you get what you pay for.

You can buy the name-brand units via internet, but the cost of the tools necessary to really do the job right exceeds the cost of a professional installation. And unless you've dedicated your career to refrigeration technology, you probably don't have the experience to figure out if it's really operating at spec, or how to diagnose & deal with it when it heads south.

That's not to say you can't learn, but that education isn't necessarily going to come cheap.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Fujitsu-Air-Conditioners/9RLS3-9000-BTU-33-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/52509.ac?catId=cat17656&mainCat=&subCat=&gclid=CKmG2OjjhMUCFXMA7AodbCMAYA


https://www.younits.com/msz-fh09na-muz-fh09na-h2itm-wall-ductless-heat-pump-30-5-seer-9-000-btu-3-4-ton.html


http://www.totalhomesupply.com/High-SEER-Mini-Split-Ductless-Heat-Pump-p/daikin-ftxg09hvju-rxg09hvju.htm

you probably don't have the experience to figure out if it's really operating at spec

I've never seen anyone who could measure COP on an installed mini-split, but if there is a way to do it, I'm interested in knowing more about it.

The trend is for the manufacturers to extend factory warranty, valid when a qualified technician installs the appliance and still in tact if he should go out of business.

Most high efficiency equipment takes careful application, installation and service to assure safety, reliability, efficiency and longevity.

We go to factory schools regularly and must now have CE for plumbing and mechanical licensing.

"9K mini splits are about $1200, they are so simple to install any one can put them in in 2 hours, but hvac contractors typically charge $3,000."

"The installer wanted $3-4 thousand to put it in"

"Sure he has overhead so does every business."

"But if I can buy it for $1200 that dealer likely pays $900 +-, $2500 for a day."

The is a tired old song and dance.
1st the installed cost is 3k but then to embellish it's 3-4k. Minimize hours, expertise and tools required to do the job. Suggest overhead is insignificant. Flat out imagine that we can get stuff cheaper and while you are at it disregard other little burdens such as sales tax and permits (yes plural, 1 electric and 1 mechanical). Often we might pay more than an internet shopper, because we don't illeagly dodge sales tax.

Of course one can save money if they don't want to share in the cost of my insurance for myself, my trucks and my business as well as my utilities rent/storefront payment, gasoline, tool depreciation, truck cost, wages, taxes (property, sales, income, business, employee SS contributions, accounting, computers and software for design, uncompensed warranty work, torch fuel, etc. etc. etc. Did my phone ring when you called, did someone answer? How did we meet through advertising of some sort (not free)? License fees are more than a few bucks and don't forget to charge it and get your airline miles reducing our take 3%. Travel time....you think people should only get paid when that work at your home or is their time worth something when they are headed to and from your job (thus unable to work elseware) and rounding up material for your job. New circuit breaker, disconnect and wire are required did you count that?

Of course if you don't already own $1,500 or so dollars worth of tools required to install these things, you might not save much at all (unless you have other uses for a nitrogen tank and regulator, vacuum pump, manifold gauges, micron gauge, oxy/acetelyne torches, refrigerent scale, miscelaneous hand tools......).

No hard feelings gosolar, but if you wish to disect someone's margin, know the cost and don't make up numbers. One can not simply subtract purchase price from contractor installed price subtract a couple bucks and call it margin. It really doesn't make contractors look like gougers it makes the people who employ bad math look disingenuous or at best uninformed.

"We were talking about minisplits and their efficiency. He related to me a rich guy wanted one with a head in each room. The young man said that "it was unnecessary but hey, we'll sell him what ever he wants". Since the poor folks can't afford it seems it's a case of sticking it to those who can or to those who really care about the environment."

agagent3 this story suggests that someone wanted more than they needed and more cost more. I don't get how that is "sticking it to someone".

Many companies are committed to right sizing and best practice, but often time consumers interfere at their own expense. Most commonly this occurs in retrofits where a home with many envelope improvements has a fraction of the load demands on the old heat plant yet the homeowner does not wish to downsize costing them money. Do I take the job, knowing that the larger furnace will perform fine though first cost is higher for the client or not argue with the client and potentially lose the job.

I can tell you that I have put pages of manual J load calculations and load based on energy consumption outlines in front of clients who at the end of the day say "I just want to be sure".

Posted By joe.ami on 20 Apr 2015 10:45 AM

The is a tired old song and dance.
1st the installed cost is 3k but then to embellish it's 3-4k. Minimize hours, expertise and tools required to do the job. Suggest overhead is insignificant. Flat out imagine that we can get stuff cheaper and while you are at it disregard other little burdens such as sales tax and permits (yes plural, 1 electric and 1 mechanical). Often we might pay more than an internet shopper, because we don't illeagly dodge sales tax.

No hard feelings gosolar, but if you wish to disect someone's margin, know the cost and don't make up numbers. One can not simply subtract purchase price from contractor installed price subtract a couple bucks and call it margin. It really doesn't make contractors look like gougers it makes the people who employ bad math look disingenuous or at best uninformed.

Well put. I got quoted for some ductless minis (Mitsubishi 30 SEER) and they came out to around $3k installed by a Diamond Pro Dealer so it carries a 7 year parts warranty. They install minis everyday and they said it takes at least 5 hours minimum to install one and that is not counting problems or complexity that might arise.

Does gouging go on out there? Sure, it does everywhere, but a well-informed buyer knows what to look for.

I think gouging goes on less than alleged. Too many people fall into the trap math of turnkey installed price minus (tax free) internet price (without all the pieces or permits required for install) equals profit ergo gouging.

Our company was (as told by client yesterday) thousands cheaper than a large outfit with a large fleet of new trucks in a high rent district. Does that mean they were gouging? For all I know my margin's higher. We keep our trucks clean and I get 7 to 8 years out of them and my shop is in the woods with very low taxes. Some companies have commission salesman which can add 10%, but some consumers find comfort in the shiny guy vs the selling technician (I actually had one guy [a salesman] tell me not to bother putting a bid together because I showed up in service tech garb vs whatever he deemed appropriate).

We could sell for even less if we kept our trucks 10 years but if we showed up in rust buckets we'd be suspected of instability and perceived as fly by night......

There is nothing that looked like gouging or price-fixing in the mini-split installation biz in my own experience- it's quite competitive in most markets.  The notion that the installers are making an excessive margin doesn't really fly. What used to be cost ~$3500-3800/ton a handful of years ago seems to cost ~$3300-3500/ton now, but the new versions have better specs on both capacity, efficiency, & operating temp.

It seems installed prices have been falling by nearly the same amount that HSPF efficiency has been improving over the past 5 years. (No hard data to back that, just  a WAG based on recent and past experience.) It's literally been a case of year-on-year "getting more for less" as the market matures a bit.   It's now possible to buy a mini-split that has more than twice the legal minimum HSPF & SEER efficiency of a decade ago, at about the same or slightly lower installed cost than a comparable unit of lesser efficiency only than 5 years ago, and it delivers a substantial & specified amount of heat even at -15F. 

Examples abound of apparent incompetence around how much mini-split is really needed to heat & cool a place (such as the "one head per room" system designs), but that is not a problem unique to mini-split installers.

Local place here says $800 per unit to install, their flyer goes on to say $5000 installed for an FE18 - that seems like a lot of parts and accessories.

$10,000 for 2 mini splits for easy install locations is not the right price for me. 

i think both gosolar and patonbike should go into the mini split installation business and put their refrigeration licenses to good use; good competition is always valuable! And then they can report back on all the $$ they're raking in.