$5K for an FE18 would be $700-1K more than it costs for one-off installation those units in my neighborhood (or in some relatives' neighborhoods in the Puget Sound area.) About 3-4 years ago on a friend's deep energy retrofit project in MA quotes for three FE18s were coming in at $12.5-13.5K range from multiple installers.

In 2011 I saw a quote for $5921.52 for an FE18, which was the all-time highest quote I've seen for that unit, and that was for a dead-easy installation at a relative's place in WA. But the contractor with the winning bid for that project came in at ~$4400. It was a much larger contractor, with a wide service area & network too. A contractor installing them in quantities of dozens per month doesn't need the same margin to keep the lights on as a contractor who installs 3 per year. Different markets have different levels of competition too. There are more people living in my friend's Worcester County MA location than in patonbike's entire state of VT, and something like a half-dozen Mitsubishi installers within a 45 minute drive from the project site, which may account for some of the delta.

If there is a Fujitsu installer serving the area it's worth getting a quote on the new 15RLS3H, (not the 15RLS2H) which has comparable or better -10F capacity, as well as higher efficiency than the FE18 (HSPF 13-something instead of HSPF 10-something.)

Thanks - I'll look into the 15RLS3H.

Posted By Bob I on 21 Apr 2015 12:56 PM
i think both gosolar and patonbike should go into the mini split installation business and put their refrigeration licenses to good use; good competition is always valuable! And then they can report back on all the $$ they're raking in.

Well I will probably not be going into business as a mini split installer, but also will not pay $5000 to install a single unit.  Either I'll not install them or wait until pricing goes down.

There's a guy on Youtube (Pacific HVAC... in NJ of all places) who installs these ~$3k /unit (including the equipment) ... whether he is good or not I don't know but it says he's authorized.     Maybe he wants to take a vacation to Vermont. 

Internet pricing on an FE18 for just the is about $2.25K, and that's not including refrigerant line sets, wall-mounting brackets (or a ground mounting pad- but don't ground mount 'em in snow country), just the interior wall-coil and the outdoor compressor unit. Allowing $250 for "...the balance of the hardware..." that come to $2.5K. I sincerely doubt you can get anything like a professional installation for the remaining $500 it takes to reach $3000.

OTOH, if he was quoting $3K/ton rather than $3K/FE18 , times 1.5 tons= $4500 that would be credible. I'd even believe $4K for a company that's installing a dozen per week.

An FE12 is only ~$1.8K at internet pricing, which is substantially more room to be able to make a $3K/ton price point.

The ASU/AOU-15RLS3H also runs about $1.8K at web stores. Pacific HVAC Air Conditioning will install one of those for $3100 according to their auction site ad. I'd hazard they are installing them in 100s or maybe even 1000s/ year, most VERY locally, given that about 2-3% of the entire population in the US are within a 45 minute drive of their Englewood NJ location. Their service area is basically NYC and all of NJ, which covers about 5% of the US population. That's a different market than VT, which comprises about 0.2% of the US population for the whole state. You'll have to sweeten the deal with more than maple syrup to get them to make the drive. :-) They're surely getting volume discounts and other incentives that make it work for them, and they probably have the logistics in place to really do it right with a minimum of on-site labor. You can bet they're never going to run a Manual-J or perform any sort of system design work for that price, but if you can tell them exactly what you want and where you want it, they'll do it provided it doesn't take more labor than what they've budgeted. No HVAC contractor in VT could survive on their margins. In VT they won't have the volumes, and the road-time & logistics overhead is higher.

In some markets contractors are hungry enough to let you do 90% of the installation as a DIY. As long as the installation looks credible they'll do all of the stuff that requires special tooling & experience on an hourly basis, in which case you can probably get there for about $3K. They'd probably want money up front for a warranty that matched the manufacturer's time period (I know I would), but it's not a terrible way to go if you can find a contractor who will work with you. Last year a guy in rural southern WI DIYed an internet-sourced 15RLS2H installation at my suggestion, where he hired a local reefer tech (not a Fujitsu certified installer) for the last 10%. It didn't start up right away- they had to email Fujitsu tech support line exactly once to sort out a cable connection error between the head & compressor unit, but he was up and running for a couple hours of tech-time. His alternative proposed solution to heating this ~650' former vacation cabin was a ridiculously oversized low-efficiency propane wall furnace, which would have come in at about the same money for installed cost, but at probably 3x the operating cost, and he would have still had to figure out an air conditioning solution.

Internet pricing on an FE18 for just the is about $2.25K, and that's not including refrigerant line sets, wall-mounting brackets (or a ground mounting pad- but don't ground mount 'em in snow country), just the interior wall-coil and the outdoor compressor unit. Allowing $250 for "...the balance of the hardware..." that come to $2.5K. I sincerely doubt you can get anything like a professional installation for the remaining $500 it takes to reach $3000.

Hmmm what do you spose permits cost ~150 for the mechanical and same for electrical, is there no sales tax in NYC?......I dunno the facts aren't convienient when people wanna cry foul Dana.

Amongst my favorites is folks who get it in their head that Air to Water is the way to go. Some of those and some of the high end VRFs cost more than some of our geo heat pumps.

I'm not sure how the rules on sales tax works in NYC for an internet purchase from a NJ outfit, I suspect any sales taxes are not included in the quoted price any more than it is on other items.  But Pacific HVAC has to have a high-volume & streamlined operation to make money at those advertised installed prices, even if un-taxed. 

Many locations (but not NY/NJ) don't have much in the way of permitting requirements or building codes.  There are towns in VT where they wouldn't batt an eye at a bootleg mini-split installation.  $5K for installing an FE18 feels pretty rich, but not nearly the apparent gouge that the nearly $6K quote I saw a few years ago, in a local market where most installers were charging well under $5K.   It's worth shopping it around with different installers (if they exist) and looking at the alternative vendors.  I doubt that even in rural VT you'd really have to pay that much for cold-climate mini-splits.  I would expect the 1.25 ton ASU/AOU-15RLS3H to come in WELL under $4.5K (maybe even under $4K) for a one-off installation in my neighborhood, but maybe it's that much in VT.

Volume matters, as does business relationships.  Carter Scott (a MA high-performance house builder with Net Zero Energy housing developments in his portfolio) typically installs one mini-split per floor in his builds.  It rarely if ever costs more than ~$6-7K per house for a pair of 3/4 tons or 1-tons. That's pretty similar to the NJ installer's price points.  But the installer has some confidence that they'll be getting repeat business from a client with a known payment record, often with multiple installations in the same neighborhood, all within a bracketed amount of calendar time. That sort of arrangement cuts logistics & overhead costs considerably- both the buyer & seller know what the deal is, and there's very little sales-overhead compared to one-off installations.  (Most of the performance monitored ductless systems & houses in this study were in Carter Scott/Transformations projects.)

I know you get it Dana.

In MI internet shoppers are to report and pay 6% sales tax for internet purchases each year though they seldom do. It is also seldom enforced, but I spend hundreds of thousands each year on material and run much more through the company accounts. I'm willing to believe it would be noticed if I suddenly stopped paying sales tax. BTW, used to be people would be embarrassed to publicly say they were dodging taxes, but less true on these forums (not refering to this thread in particular but in others people asked "why should I if I don't have to?")
You also have to be careful comparing new build to retrofit as in new build the electrician adds one more ciruit to a big job versus making a special trip and pulling a permit if required for one circuit. It is also much less risky and quicker to run linesets and electrical through unfinished walls.

Usually advertised prices have exclusions or things not included i.e. sales tax, permits etc. People don't seem to believe they can get a new F150 for $199/mo even though they saw it on the internet, yet they want to hold their local HVAC guy to an internet price. It's frankly uninformed to think the two compare at all.

Joe is right.

Fortunately, smart people know better. We work for them.

In patonbike's case it's new construction, so the electrical work would be rolled into the construction plan if they know where it's going.

Even as a retrofit $5K seems high for that unit, since I have many existence proofs of FE18s being retrofitted for under $4.5K in multiple house types in multiple locations across the country, not all of them super-simple installations. I think he can do better than $5K, but he's never going to see anything like the NJ internet price. But at VT style propane costs even at $5K it'll pay for the difference between that and a cheap condensing propane furnace in well under it's anticipated lifecycle.

It pays to focus on what you will get, rather than how much the contractor is "making".

ROI, payback, proper application, installation and maintenance with warranty a distant third until you have a problem.

"In patonbike's case it's new construction, so the electrical work would be rolled into the construction plan if they know where it's going."

True, I was speaking more generally of cost contributors that people tend not to think about when playing the compare the guy in front of them to the internet game.

that brings up a question from me... is power to the interior units supplied by the exterior units or are they separate circuits?

power to the interior units supplied by the exterior units
one circuit

Generally speaking, bob is correct. The units I work with require 14-3 to the wall or ceiling units from the outdoor unit.

Posted By Dana1 on 21 Apr 2015 02:03 PM
$5K for an FE18 would be $700-1K more than it costs for one-off installation those units in my neighborhood (or in some relatives' neighborhoods in the Puget Sound area.) About 3-4 years ago on a friend's deep energy retrofit project in MA quotes for three FE18s were coming in at $12.5-13.5K range from multiple installers.

In 2011 I saw a quote for $5921.52 for an FE18, which was the all-time highest quote I've seen for that unit, and that was for a dead-easy installation at a relative's place in WA. But the contractor with the winning bid for that project came in at ~$4400. It was a much larger contractor, with a wide service area & network too. A contractor installing them in quantities of dozens per month doesn't need the same margin to keep the lights on as a contractor who installs 3 per year. Different markets have different levels of competition too. There are more people living in my friend's Worcester County MA location than in patonbike's entire state of VT, and something like a half-dozen Mitsubishi installers within a 45 minute drive from the project site, which may account for some of the delta.

If there is a Fujitsu installer serving the area it's worth getting a quote on the new 15RLS3H, (not the 15RLS2H) which has comparable or better -10F capacity, as well as higher efficiency than the FE18 (HSPF 13-something instead of HSPF 10-something.)

Do the Fujitsu's have the same output curve roughly as Mitsubishis?

That is,  does the Fujitsu 15RLS3H also  put out 82% of it's +47F capacity (18k btu)  at -4F? I.e. both will put out 14760 BTU/hour at -4F?

The Mitsubishi submittal seems to have a lot more info about capacity at different lower temperatures.

The capcity curves on the RLS3s is comparable to those of the RLS2, but the efficiencies are higher:

http://smartgreenbuild.com/pdf/Fujitsu-RLS2H.pdf

At -4F the 15RLS3 puts out about 16,000 BTU/hr at max-speed, and 15,000BTU/hr @ -15F.

The FE18's max output at -4F is slightly higher than the 15RLS3H, but at -10F they're pretty much the same.

When looking at submittal sheets, be sure not to confuse "rated" capacities with "maximum capacity". The rated capacity is the output level at which it was tested or efficiency. Both the FE18 & 15RLS3 can deliver substantially more than 18,000 BTU/hr @ +47F outdoor temps, but it's pointless to test their efficiency at that fairly temperate outdoor temperature, selected to represent some sort of overall seasonal average temperature & modulation level in a US climate zone 4 climate. With modest oversizing you can come pretty close to hitting the rated HSPF levels in a zone 6 climate despite the lower seasonal average temps, since it will be modulating at a lower fraction of it's max-capacity, beating the HSPF numbers at the actual loads you'll see at +47F.

There are better models than the HSPF standard that have been developed by the NEEA consortium, but they are not published, and the models need to be tweaked with every mini-split release or engineering upgrade for those in full production. The NEEA did a lot of verification & adjustments to their abstract mini-split model to help explain the high performance at low temp. The dozen or so FE12s in their in-situ monitored Eastern Idaho cluster averaged a seasonal COP of 2.96 ( HSPF= 10.1) , in Idaho Falls, a location with binned January mean temperature of about 20F (well below 47F), and a 99% outside design temp of -6F, somewhat comparable to yours. The HSPF test efficiency of an FE12 is 10.6 (COP of 3.1), is not a lot more than the local fleet average. It's likely that at least some of those in the cluster actually hit that number, even as others fell short.

Taking the FH15NA as an example, the way that I interpreted this:

"Highly energy-efficient system that features 100% heating capacity at 5°F, 82% at -4°F, and 62% at -13°F"

...was that it can output 100% of 18k BTU @ 5F, 82% of 18K BTU @ -4F and 62% of 18k BTU at -13F. Are these percentages actually based on 24k BTU/hour, not 18K BTU/hour?

Looking at the chart on the RLS2H it looks like it's putting out 15K BTU/hour at -15F. So you'd think the FH15NA could do similar.

So I guess I'll eat my hat here.  Efficiency Vermont has a daunting list of suppliers and I started doing some phone work.  I came up with a manufacturer trained/recommended installer with more palatable numbers.  If I can time this right with Efficiency Vermont incentives then we're even better.    I'll keep at it.

The +5F max capacity of the FE18 is 21,600 BTU/hr, which is also it's stated-rated efficiency-tested 47F heating capacity ( though it can deliver a lot more than that @ +47F, but at lower than rated efficiency.)

So, 62% of it's rated 21.6K means the FE18 will deliver about 13,400 BTU/hr @ -13F. That's a bit less than the ~15-16,000 BTU/hr that the -15RLS3H delivers at a similar temp, but not a huge amount less.

The FH15NA'/s max capacity at +5F and state/rated/efficiency-tested 47F heating capacity is 18,000 BTU/hr.

Assuming a 62% derating factor for -13F capacity from 18K is about 11,200 BTU/hr. It might not be that severe- ask the Mitsubishi installers for the exact capacity number.

Bu is quite a bit LESS than the ~15K you can get out of the -15RLS3H at that temp. (Even the 12RLS3H has more capacity at -13F is higher than the FH15.)

The HSPF efficiency of the FH15 is about 12, compared to about 13.5 for the 15RLS3H (and about 10.5 for the FE18.) The 47F testing for each of the "15s" was at a modulated 18,000 BTU/hr. The higher tested efficiency is is likely to be due to marginally larger coils, all else being equal. Larger coils would also give it greater capacity at very low temps. So, if both quoted price and local support levels are similar, the Fujitsu may be a better choice. But if there are 15 certified Mitsubishi installers for every Fujitsu installer serving your area it's probably safer to go with Mitsubishi. Both manufacturers are first-tier quality vendors, but local support differences can be large.

Don't be shy about directing certified installers about where & how you want the outdoor unit installed. I find it incredulous how many shiny-new mini-splits ended up buried in snow this winter in my area. Bracket mounted on the wall above the historical snowpack depth, protected by roof overhangs (rake preferable to eaves) really SHOULD be standard practice in New England, but (strangely) doesn't seem to be. (What, d'ya mean it actually SNOWS here sometimes? :-) ) You really don't want to have to dig up the damned thing after every nor'easter to stay warm, since there is a clear way to avoid it. You don't want to park it in the path of a roof-avalanche or eave-cornice fall either.

I don't think that gosolar and patonbike are talking about going into business installing minis.  What they are talking about is a fair price for performing a fairly simple technical task.  When I wanted to install a mini-split in my old farmhouse, I called a local guy and got an estimate.  He quoted $6242 (I still have the estimate) for an MUZFE18NA Mitsubishi.  You could have knocked me over with a feather.  I have been installing furnaces off and on, helping a couple of buddies, for 15 or so years, but had never installed a minisplit.  I do have my universal license.  I have tools.  I bought a unit over the internet (MSZ/MUZFE18NA), for $2250 Plus a lineset, plus a conceal for the lineset.  All together well less than $2500.  It took me about 6 hours to install. My second one will take a lot less time.
 
Now my math tells me (degrees in electronics engineering and computer science) that the contractor was planning on making $3742 over and above the unit cost for an afternoon of work.  Where do I sign up?  Now I want to be fair, and I do understand that if I want someone to answer the phone when I call, they need to make a profit.  Had he quoted me say, $4500 (That's still $2000 for an afternoon), I would have shaken his hand and said, "When do you think you can get it installed?"  But that extra $1700 above the $2000 just chafes.

Now there are a lot of contractors on this board that have said that people who do their own installs are ill-equipped or somehow cheating.  One said that if you are buying interstate over the internet and avoiding sales tax, that is cheating.  I can show you in the Constitution where it says that states are not allowed to tax interstate commerce, although some of them still try.  If they could, don't you think they would?  Another guy said that individuals can't possibly do good installs because they lack things like gauges, nitrogen tanks, torches, evacuation pumps, and a bunch of other things that supposedly cost thousands of dollars.  A decent gauge set for 410A costs less than $200.  A cheap but serviceable two-stage evacuation pump can be had for less than $150.  I think my universal license cost me about $45 and some study time.  So even if I hadn't already had the tools, I could have still done the whole job for less than half what the contractor wanted to charge me. One other guy mentioned permits, but I live in a rural area, so there is none of that.  My Mitsubishi technical materials said that I should use a lineset with flared ends, torqued appropriately.  So much for the guy with the nitrogen tank, torch and all that stuff.  He's probably one of those guys that chops off the flare fittings and brazes because he's always brazed.

Now there is the matter of the warranty.  I'll grant you that I didn't get one (although some of the online vendors are now giving warranties to installers that have their EPA license and can prove it).  But how much warranty could I buy for $3700 on a $2250 unit?  If the current one chokes, I can have another one here within a week for < $2500 (did I mention the free shipping?), recover the gas, install the new unit, and still be over $1200 ahead.  Life is full of risks. I don't buy extended warranties for my cars/computers/whatever, so maybe I'm dumb.  But I have saved thousands over the years not buying warranties, and if I take a hit, that's the biz.  BTW, my unit without a warranty has been running right along for two years next month.

I know that this long post is not going to change anybody's mind, but it would be nice if some of you contractors tried to see it from the point of view of the guys that are trying to get what they feel is a fair price (in my estimation, $3742 for an afternoon is not fair).  And you guys that are thinking about doing the job yourself, you need to bite the bullet, get the license, buy the tools, and do the job right.