Does 2012 IBC/IRC recognize SCIP?

How does the exterior shotcrete work in an area that experiences freezing temps? Cement based exterior finishes like stucco have a lot of cracking problems in areas that experience freeze/thaw cycles.

Is the shotcrete water proof/moisture resistant?

Are the new SCIPs now designed without the steel thermal bridging trusses that the old designs had?

Alton
As I found out some company's are just in their own minds.
Buyer beware!!
The Colorado company (current name unknown) I ordered panels from sent me a dear john email two weeks before delivery.
As far as I can find out in two years they have never built a SCIP home.
Another Colorado company has built three buildings with a Met Rock type panel.
They build a super clean panel but the machine is slow compared to GCTs set up so labor costs are higher as is the panel cost.
I know of several other company's two in Texas, one in California and Mexico has a number of suppliers of panels.
Of the above companies Paul in Texas may or may not be building panels he has set up panel presses in a number of countries. He probably has the most complete history of the panel as his brother is the first person I can find using the panel.
I have heard and once found a link with a reference dating back to the 40s but my laptop died and I have not found it again.
Many of the companies are really middle persons brokering the panels from Mexico and South America.
GCT is the only one I am in contact with that is full service US made and with someone to answer all my questions.
Rod in San Diego, and Jim in Reno all broker panels and are extremely knowledgeable and helpful.
If anyone wants there contact information email me. Annie in LA has a panel company with photos with Clinton in Haiti and a LA TV interview. I am unsure what panel she uses.
Over the past four years they are still in the game answer my calls.

oops

sorry

Posted By Lbear on 28 Feb 2013 10:15 PM
Does 2012 IBC/IRC recognize SCIP?

How does the exterior shotcrete work in an area that experiences freezing temps? Cement based exterior finishes like stucco have a lot of cracking problems in areas that experience freeze/thaw cycles.

Is the shotcrete water proof/moisture resistant?

Are the new SCIPs now designed without the steel thermal bridging trusses that the old designs had?

The thermal bridging is not as big of a deal as you may think. Single digits for several days in a row, with weeks below freezing. The thermostat was set at 55 and the temperature in the house never dropped below 60 with afternoon temperatures from solar gain in the high 70s even low 80s. SO how much thermal bridging was there? We had some cracking as the first Shotcrete contractor attempted doing the walls in one coat and I switch systems and sub cutting down on cracking. Looking forward to using GCTS blend to see how it works. If you have experience with thermal mass building and SCIP Panels it is a non issue. A European SCIP panel company had a composite tie option. Never saw it in the US. I emailed Victor for a copy of the picture of the thermal test I can attach. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Another builders SCIP home above Boulder CO. High above Boulder Colorado zone 4+++ I guess, light freeze possible on occasion .

Posted By Richard Sims on 28 Feb 2013 11:01 PM


The thermal bridging is not as big of a deal as you may think. Single digits for several days in a row, with weeks below freezing. The thermostat was set at 55 and the temperature in the house never dropped below 60 with afternoon temperatures from solar gain in the high 70s even low 80s. SO how much thermal bridging was there? We had some cracking as the first Shotcrete contractor attempted doing the walls in one coat and I switch systems and sub cutting down on cracking. Looking forward to using GCTS blend to see how it works. If you have experience with thermal mass building and SCIP Panels it is a non issue. A European SCIP panel company had a composite tie option. Never saw it in the US. I emailed Victor for a copy of the picture of the thermal test I can attach. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

You mentioned that you had cracking on the walls. How bad were the cracks?

Is there any HotBox or 3rd party testing by any of the labs regarding SCIPs?

No disrespect, but anecdotal evidence does not count as proof of thermal bridging not being a factor. From what I have read, SCIPs works better in mild climates (Florida, Mexico, South America) but in any Zone 4 or above, the thermal bridging of the metal trusses really hurts the efficiency of the home. As seen below, the metal trusses are all thermal bridges and would play a significant role. Both concrete and metal are notorious for thermal bridging. There is no thermal break in the metal trusses that are exposed to the outside and sitting in concrete.




I am not knocking the technology but the current SCIPs available here have a thermal bridge problem that is inherent in the design itself. While maybe not a huge problem in Zones 1-3, it does play a role in colder climates.

The other question is that with a SCIP, everywhere where a truss meets the exterior wall, a solid-concrete joint is installed. They remove the EPS and fill the cavity with concrete. This is another thermal bridge. Have they designed a different system for these areas?

When it comes to strength, there is no doubt that SCIPs perform better than any stick frame construction. The biggest issue is that any scientific data is really lacking on SCIPS. None of the National Labs mention it and its non-existant on the GBA and JLC professional websites. ORNL did a hotbox of a psuedo SCIPS and it rated the thermal bridging as extremely high. Knocking the panel from the supposed R30 down to an R8 all due to the metal web trusses.

I am not knocking the technology but the currtent SCIPs available here have a thermal bridge problem that is inherent in the design itself.

Elsewhere in this forum I went through the calculations. As I recall, a factor, but not a large one.

And as I have pointed out, the R8 SCIP wall in question was the (formerly) Dow Tmass system consisting of a concrete sandwich of R10 xps. The R-30 figure was ORNL's estimate of its mass-enhanced equivalent R value.

As a rule, disregard any statement that begins "I am not knocking the technology but...."

Posted By toddm on 01 Mar 2013 08:28 AM


As a rule, disregard any statement that begins "I am not knocking the technology but...."

I believe that is uncalled for!! It is an honest concern that is being expressed. We have had conversations about the amount of steel fasteners required to attach foam to the envelope of home and how much heat is lost. Certainly when you have the steel truss embedded in layers of highly conductive concrete on both the warm side and on the cold side you will have heat loss. The steel is highly conductive and the two concrete panels become absorbent and radiant panels. As Lbear was expressing, the higher the delta T the more concern this would be.

Richard,

Thank you for posting your comments.  That is valuable info to know.  Although I have used SCIP panels, I am still learning more about the technology and companies every day.  I really appreciate the wide choice of panels GCT has for walls, floors and roofs and the way they respond to questions.

Lbear,
There are some walls with the insulation between two wythes of concrete that do reduce the thermal path.  See SolarCrete, ThermoMASS, SABS, and EASI-Wall insert.  Keep in mind that the ThermoMASS wall is not a composite wall.  That is, only one of the wythes of concrete can be used for structural calculations.

Shotcrete walls can be very water resistant if the proper mix like Quikrete MS is used.  Ordinary mixes can be easily protected by treating the walls with S1000, S2000, etc. and color can be almost unlimited with synthetic (acrylic) stucco.

Shotcrete and cement based finishes can be quite different.  Shotcrete can be applied with a very low water to cement ratio and can have very high PSI which can reduce the possibility of cracking.  With the right mix and under good curing conditions, the PSI can reach 9000 PSI.  A PSI above 4200 will be very water resistant.  My understanding is that real stucco applied with too much water in the mix will create small cracks that can look like a spider web.  That happened on one of my projects.  Stucco crew easily removed and replaced cracked area.  Since I live in a very moderate climate, I do not know about whether freezing affects shotcrete.  Check with some of the zoos in cold climate areas.  A lot of the natural looking exhibits contain a lot of shotcrete in the shape of rocks and caves.

Regarding thermal bridging, I have been considering installing 2" of EPS beyond the shotcrete and then applying a synthetic stucco.  For example, ordering a panel with about 4" of EPS and then adding more EPS after the shotcrete.  Other than the extra cost, I think this would correct the thermal problem.

Keep in mind that stucco and shotcrete are concrete and benefit from being kept moist while curing.

So I see a larger sample with trusses needs to be tested. I know there was a thermal study by a university in Arizona but I have not been able to get a copy. It was run on thermal bridging of a complete room with trusses every six inches. If the panels truly dropped to R8 the interior how could the inside stayed above 60 degrees with temps for several day in the single digits and weeks with lows in the twenty's and thirty's. The building is so energy efficient the owner questioned the need for geothermal. I walked the house most mornings with my thermal gun and shot the walls doors windows inside and out. I did nor find a panel or interior wall area below 60 degrees. My real life Colorado winter experience does not track with your study. I have worked in SIPs and ICF homes in the dead of winter and none were as comfortable as the a thermal mass interior. I do not have the answers but it compels me to find more answers.

Posted By Richard Sims on 01 Mar 2013 09:16 PM
I know there was a thermal study by a university in Arizona but I have not been able to get a copy.

Are there steel web trusses within that foam? I don't see any in the picture.

Concrete - EPS - concrete = the EPS would be a thermal break as long as there was NO steel connection between the outside concrete and inside concrete. The typical SCIP I have seen has steel web trusses and steel mesh that interconnect from one side of the form to the other.

While the above will not pass the scrutiny as being a valid scientific experiment, it is interesting to note. What surprises me more is the 4" thick concrete block is actually showing a temperature drop. A concrete block like that has an R-Value of like R1, so for it to show a 20 degree difference in temperature is strange to say the least.

My first sentence.... So I see a larger sample with trusses needs to be tested.

Alton spoke of a number of non SCIP systems , one being Thermal mass wall systems a poured in place wall system with a foam thermal break with composite ties.
The system has been built in the US for over forty years.
I saw a fire station in the Colorado mountains that had a $1.00 heating bill for the year.
Thermal mass with the break is the game changer.

Even Oak Ridge National Laboratory's studies show the benefit of thermal mass

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html

Comparative analysis of sixteen different material configurations showed that the most effective wall assembly was the wall with thermal mass (concrete) applied in good contact with the interior of the building. Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side, performed much worse. Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides.

Posted By Alton on 01 Mar 2013 11:50 AM

Lbear,
There are some walls with the insulation between two wythes of concrete that do reduce the thermal path.  See SolarCrete, ThermoMASS, SABS, and EASI-Wall insert.  Keep in mind that the ThermoMASS wall is not a composite wall.  That is, only one of the wythes of concrete can be used for structural calculations.


Regarding thermal bridging, I have been considering installing 2" of EPS beyond the shotcrete and then applying a synthetic stucco.  For example, ordering a panel with about 4" of EPS and then adding more EPS after the shotcrete.  Other than the extra cost, I think this would correct the thermal problem.

That would work as a thermal break but what about the costs? I've read that SCIPs goes for about $20-$25 per sqft of wall space, when all is said and done (forms, labor, shotcrete, etc). Adding another 2" of EPS and then another EIFS stucco coats would surely make the costs out of reach for most people. What prices have you seen SCIPs at (installed)?

Concrete or Shotcrete are so dependent on exterior temps, humidity, air wind speed, sunlight, etc. From my observations Shotcrete is much more temperamental than pouring a slab on grade. That is one thing that shines with ICF, it is the perfect curing environment for concrete. Cracks forming in Shotcrete is a problem, especially in climates that see freeze/thaw cycles.

I don't want to come across as all negative but there is a reason why SCIPs is so rare. There is almost no 3rd party test results available. A Google or Bing search on SCIPs nets almost no real world test data. The search engine actually finds so little information on it that it tries to convert it to "SIPS" instead. Even when you spell out SCIPs, I can't find hard data on it, just some websites that sell and install the product. Not to mention the SCIP companies that went defunct in past couple of years.

ORNL TEST OF SCIP   (2" concrete - 3" EPS - 2" concrete) (Due to thermal bridging wall had a R-Value of R7.6)

SCIPs has potential, I just don't think it will ever catch on, at least here in the USA. Until the SCIP industry has ORNL or LBNL do some in-depth hot box tests, it will remain obscure. The inability to install interior drywall is a huge negative, the lack of simple interior attachment points, trying to hang a painting becomes a huge ordeal, having your electrical wiring and plumbing buried under 2" or more of shotcrete within the walls is not a selling point.

The biggest drawback I've seen is the cost, the lack of availability in regional areas and the lack of a well-trained crew to do it, the costs are pretty high, much higher than ICF. As far as R-Value per dollar spent, it will not appeal to most. If it comes down to disaster resistant housing, then yes, it has a selling point. ICF gets beat up quite a bit for price per R-Value. The folks at Green Building Advisor and Journey of Light Construction don't even give SCIPs the time of day. If you thought they were tough on ICF, they don't even acknowledge SCIPs as being a viable building option.

A good start would be if this forum gave SCIPs it it's own forum category.

GCT posted this on FB, I'm surely intrigued about this system but would not want to be a guinea pig especially in a northern cold climate. Maybe they have experienced crews or supervisors to oversee projects.  Good to see a SCIP company expanding in the US.

very cool! have there been studies on the amount thermal transfer from inside wythe to outside through the wire mesh? thanks!
February 8 at 9:22am · Like

GCT Numeruous test have been performed by Approved Agency and Approved Source: SBC Research Institute, Madison, WI. For detail and technical information, please visit www.sbcri.info or contact Mr. Scott Miller, at [email protected] or call him at 904-742-4171.
February 8 at 10:07am · Unlike · 1

they mentioned projects in AK and ND, would be great if GCT came to this forum and shared some more information.

I thought the metrock panels w/ the screed guide wire were a good idea for non skilled shotcrete guys getting depth right and flatter walls. You'd think gunite/shotcrete companies and pool contractors would be all over promoting this system for more business. Why not insulated pools? They make so much sense. fences, retaining walls to start and move into homes as skill level increases. Costs would come down rapidly w/ more supply in the marketplace. I'd personally like the finish in a modern minimalist concrete home. You know the stuff is tough, they use the technology to repair bridges and strengthen mine shafts.

Concerns as raised would be how do you combat thermal bridging where the walls meet the roof panels? when its mesh to mesh you'd get concrete from the inside to the outside along that seam. is it significant?

The construction method should have some cost offsets as well when doing calculations, eliminating materials and trades such as barriers, framing, drywall, insulation, siding etc...I don't see the electrical and plumbing in walls being too big of an issue, especially when you want to design plumbing to interior walls, and put conduit in for electrical in exterior walls.

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck SABS can build with thick EPS panels and get a solid structure with only a 1/4inch application of their fiber cement???

Gigahouse looks pretty dang slick too! EPS panels with steel framing that slides in precut slots in a nifty system, then covered w/ gigacrete.

"I believe that is uncalled for!! It is an honest concern that is being expressed. We have had conversations about the amount of steel fasteners required to attach foam to the envelope of home and how much heat is lost."

What's uncalled for is resurrecting a patently ridiculous claim -- a thermal bridge reduction from R30 to R8 -- that was challenged and withdrawn earlier in this thread. The actual reduction in ORNL's test of the TMass system was R10 to R8.

There is quite a bit of third party testing some I have seen. Some dating back to the early 90s.
Last year I saw a study on roof and floor panels tested to failure.
The redesigned fix was close to what I already was doing with 25 to 30' spans designed by Merline.

Merline Vandyke a licensed engineer of Colorado did a lot of work with the Met Rock people.

University Irvin in Cal has done a lot of structural tests regarding earthquakes. The information I have on private testing is not mine to pass out and its owner who spent thousands is not personally known to me

It is my understanding shotcrete was widely used after WWll in rebuilding Europe. Thermal mass building is the standard building method used in Europe. It was the only system I saw touring building sites in Austria two yeas ago.

Talking to a German based contractor I met at WOC when we were discussing building in both country's he commented how advanced America is on so many levels just not building.
He made the statement we were still in the caveman era as far as energy efficiency.

I know some of the guys who built a house in San Diego in under three hours back in the 80s. I am talking ground up, complete move in ready including pouring the slab.
So we can do fast how about now we make better the standard.


Cost to build SCIP, ICFs, and sips varies a lot state to state like any other type of building.
I know of one guy in Colorado quoting $18.00 and I have heard prices $15.00 to 18.00 in the south. To many things effect price to throw out numbers with any accuracy.

There are more SCIP homes around than we even know about.
I know one I drove by for years not even knows SCIP existed.