Structural Concrete Insulated Panel SCIP
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Richard SimsUser is Offline
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02 Mar 2013 01:12 PM
A good start would be if this forum gave SCIPs it it's own forum category.
I have wondered the same thing.


Richard SimsUser is Offline
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02 Mar 2013 02:28 PM
What would it take for GBT to open a separate forum?


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02 Mar 2013 05:40 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 02 Mar 2013 02:28 PM
What would it take for GBT to open a separate forum?

If you mean a separate forum thread category, it would take enough of a substantial interest, which does not currently exist. What I can tell you is that Green Building Advisor does NOT recognize SCIPs as even a viable building option. They discuss SIPs, ICF, rammed earth, wood frame, and many other building methods but SCIPs is non-existent. The same goes for JLC. Log onto the sites and see for yourself. The cost of SCIPs and the ROI is too out of wack and the risk of things going bad is also high. Add to that the lack of qualified/skilled crews to do it and nobody wants to deal with it. As others have mentioned here, who want to be the guinea pig?

What SCIPs needs to do is get an established resource center where people can go to. Then it will require the SCIP manufacturers to have the panels tested by 3rd party labs  and get IRC/IBC code approved. It will then be viewed as being legitimate. Until then, it's going to remain in obscurity as it has for the past decade.

My firsthand experience with SCIPs was that none of the online companies would returns calls and the one company that did return a call was ball parking around $20-$25 per wall square footage. I later learned many of those SCIPs companies went defunct and then later tried opening up under other LLC names. Not exactly something that instills trust in the industry.




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02 Mar 2013 06:12 PM
Saying SCIPs only work in warmer climates is not true.

I know of SCIP buildings in zones 5-7 with no ill effects from freeze thaw reported.

I have tried to contact the owner of a commercial SCIP building built in the mid 90s with no luck.
I did contact the owner of a commercial building built in the mid 2000s. They are extremely happy with the building.
I worked with a shotcrete contractor who has been working with many different panels and foam shotcrete systems in the past thirty years.
Many were built in the mountains in Colorado, I know he has also worked in the NW and far north as Alaska.
The Green Sandwich Panel company has been building in Colorado for thirty years I believe.


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02 Mar 2013 06:12 PM
Wolfram Kasemir and Merline Van Dyke worked on the Green Sandwich Panel and the K Panel before Merline worked on the MetRock Panel in 92 if I remember correctly.


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02 Mar 2013 06:30 PM
Richard - While I have a number of concerns about this method of building, I would love to learn more. If my considers are relevant maybe open discussion can find answers to those concerns. I know that here in Calgary Alberta, shotcrete of some form or other has been used successfully for retain walls and the dinosaur park at the Zoo so to go to building homes would not be such a stretch. Of course thermal bridging is much more a concern in a home than it might be to the dinosaurs at the zoo that themselves are made of shotcrete!! Try clicking the ALERT button to the right of your post. It will alert the moderator and who knows, he might see it as a good idea.


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04 Mar 2013 09:43 PM
ICF was some fringe whack idea at one point as well. It takes some organization, 3rd party testing for legitimacy, associations, coordination, continuous improvement/innovation along the way, and marketing muscle to educate the marketplace.  Whether that happens remains to be seen.  I think there is lots of potential in similar systems.

anyone have info on how SABS can build a strong structure with no steel mesh/reinforcing and such a thin coat of cement?


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04 Mar 2013 11:15 PM
I have a client hot to use SABS but the material prices exceeded the budget.  Now we are planning to use Gulf Concrete Technology shotcrete panels from Long Beach, MS.


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04 Mar 2013 11:51 PM
did they price a gigahouse system?


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05 Mar 2013 07:46 AM
Posted By slenzen on 04 Mar 2013 11:51 PM
did they price a gigahouse system?

No, we did not consider a Gigahouse system.  I will take another look at the Gigacrete system for future projects.  Does anyone on this forum have experience with the Gigacrete system?  If so, please share.


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05 Mar 2013 08:00 AM
There are a few SCIP houses going up down the road from me. Local price is about $40 per 4'x10'x2" panel. I've seen no problems with the SCIP homes here (tropical climate). They go up fast, the walls are straight and the A/C costs are reduced.


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05 Mar 2013 11:08 AM
Wonder if sabs, GCT, or gigahouse would want to build my house for me in the north for free and use it as a show home?


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05 Mar 2013 02:22 PM
Posted By jonr on 05 Mar 2013 08:00 AM
There are a few SCIP houses going up down the road from me. Local price is about $40 per 4'x10'x2" panel. I've seen no problems with the SCIP homes here (tropical climate). They go up fast, the walls are straight and the A/C costs are reduced.

Jonr,
Have any idea who supplied the shotcrete panels or what brand of shotcrete will be used?  My experience has been with Insteel which no longer exists.  I understand that Tridipanel from Mexicali, Mexico is the current incarnation of Insteel.  I wonder how much the labor and shotcrete will cost per panel?


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Richard SimsUser is Offline
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05 Mar 2013 08:48 PM
This is not scientific
Nor do I hope to change anyone with a closed mind or dispute anyone who puts out false information.

I had the pleasure of talking to a retired architect who built a SCIP home in 2002 on the Puget Sound. He now plans to build again with SCIP panels. I asked him how the panels performed in the North West .

He built the same type Alton did down south from Georgia supplied by Insteel.

He laughed when I told him about the nay sayers telling of huge drops in R value from the thermal bridging of the trusses.

He told of 40 degree days looking at all the wood stoves smoking away and his heat had not come on.

Told me how it would take an average of three days for the house to gain heat after being away and keep the heat for three days when the temperature dropped.

I did not ask how many years how many years he lived in the home. He was impressed enough to build with the system again.

I also spoke today with the client who moved into the Highland SCIP home I built. I asked about how the home was performing energy wise. He said his bills were 50% less and his old house is five feet away and was recently remodeled with radiant heat insulation high efficiency appliances.

I admit I was hoping for more savings but it is not a true apple for apples comparison.

I will see what data the Architect has if any when we meet in the next weeks.


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05 Mar 2013 08:51 PM
Posted By jonr on 05 Mar 2013 08:00 AM
There are a few SCIP houses going up down the road from me. Local price is about $40 per 4'x10'x2" panel. I've seen no problems with the SCIP homes here (tropical climate). They go up fast, the walls are straight and the A/C costs are reduced.


Please post up any information you can and pictures if possible.


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05 Mar 2013 09:59 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 05 Mar 2013 08:48 PM
This is not scientific
Nor do I hope to change anyone with a closed mind or dispute anyone who puts out false information.
It's not about having a "closed mind", it's about scientific facts and data. A lot of energy claims can be made but it comes down to where is the real factual proof? This is where the FTC steps in. If SCIPs can perform like the anecdotal claims that are put out there, then put it to test and put it to black and white. Unfortunately there is no scientific data out there which backs these verbal claims.

The FTC recently fined a company $350,000 for false energy claims. If SCIPs wants to be recognized by the green and alternative building industry, then it needs to put its money where its mouth is. Back the claims, do the 3rd party studies, get code approved. Let the FTC keep them in check. Until then anecdotal claims is not going to convince people to build with SCIPs.


Richard SimsUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2013 11:08 AM
ORNL conducted thermal experiments in 1987 that tested concrete sandwich panels: http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1987/3445602788810.pdf


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06 Mar 2013 11:30 AM
Some high points of the study
a. This paper states that there is only a 7% reduction in the thermal properties of concrete panels with 32 – 3 mm diameter stainless steel connectors in a 103”x103” wall compared to walls without connectors or with fiberglass-composite ties.
b. The report evaluated the isothermal planes method (also called series-parallel method) of calculating the R factor for the wall assemblies and found that the method predicted a 5% decrease in the thermal properties which is very close to the measured difference.
c. The isothermal planes method for concrete walls is contained in ACI 122R “Guide to Thermal Properties of Concrete and Masonry Systems” which we used to calculate the R-factors for the GCT TER.
d. The walls also had a thermal lag of 5 to 6 hours, which helps to reduce the impact of daily high/low temperatures.
e. The thermal lag indicates the capacity of the wall to store energy and is useful for designing passive solar systems.


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06 Mar 2013 12:24 PM

Richard,

Thanks for posting the test results.  I think the test and field results are consistent.  Quoting the test results to a prospective client would be fair.  More validity could be achieved by other experimenters repeating the tests and obtaining similar results.



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Richard SimsUser is Offline
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06 Mar 2013 12:43 PM
Alton or any others interested
I am expecting two large files complied with more information than I am sure I want.


Its out there if you want to find it.


Before I built with SCIPs I saw it.


Talked to the family living in it.


Talked to the owner of a commercial SCIP building.


I have built it, experienced it, and trusted the data and information given to me by my engineer.


Who not only did the engineering on the SCIP home but years of structural work on many of my projects, including 8,500 home and 19,800 home and barn.


Be carful for what you ask for is what thought when I was told here come tons of data. I will pass it on as I am sure it will be more than I have time to pull apart and post as fast as many of you could.


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