Hello, I would like to repost that question being that it originally posted in 2007 and it is now 2015. I am brand new to this forum. I plan on building an ICF home next spring about 2,600 sq. ft. So here I am doing my research. I am wondering about how must has changed since the original post or is it pretty much about the same today was in 2007? I found the original post very informative and enlightening. Some of the quotes are: "Or what is it about certain systems that make you trust them more than others. Does it matter to you if there are webs every 6 inches or is every 8 inches enough? And so on... I've visited a lot of the ICF manufacturer's websites, and while you can get a lot of information there, it is of course all one-sided ("our forms are the best!"). So if you don't mind saying "Brand-X is better because of this" then that's great. But if you don't like rating them like that by name, then you could just speak in general terms of the best qualities and so forth. " "In our opinion, three manufacturers forms will achieve maximum success with lower labor, shipping, waste and ancillary material costs. A six inch on center web spacing fixed form is most user friendly all around. So hurrah for Buildblock, Amvic, Reward, Greenblock, Superform But onlyl Amvic, Reward, Buildblock are reversible, a value added feature for labor and material savings. We offer our best installation prices to install projects with these forms. About every 8 inch on center system propogates the use of "in-wall bracing" also called Form-loc. This product is priced locally for $9.39 per 10 ft. section. Typically three courses of form loc is used per pour. Nudura, Arxx, Logix, and many other 8 inch web systems have added costs because it takes more money in material and labor to gain perfect finished product. Knock down, fold flat forms equal forms that will hinge and cause more problems during concrete placement and more bracing requirements. Consolidation is always an issue. Webs that allow stacking of rebar at splices without the need for wire ties to accomplish a code approved lap splice are a great addition when stacking block. Amvic, Reward, Buildblock have these features. Nudura, Arxx, Logix, Polysteel, etc. do not. Form loc has a tendeny to hang up concrete, and unfortunately, many distributors still sell forms but not provide vibrators..." "6" web spacing is in fact far better all around. I know, because all we USED to use were 8 inch on center systems. We worked just as hard, but struggled more. The "16 inch traditional" mumbo jumbo makes me laugh, that's really all the 8 inch web manufacturers have to defend themselves with. "

Start with Arxx, Polysteel & Reward are no longer in business.
Then decide if you like and 8' long ICF or a 4' long ICF
Then decide if you want a knock down or fully assembled ICF
Then decide if you want plastic or steel ties
Then decide of the standard core sizes are satisfactory or if you need an odd size up to 24"
I think the industry is pretty much over the "My Pop's better than your Pop" baloney. There's plenty of work to go around.

Another factor is to find a local installer and ask them what they use. Whoever you chose to install the ICF must be familiar with that ICF manufacturer and a local support representative should be available. In other words, you don't want an installer who never used that block before and the ICF manufacturer is nowhere to be found when support is needed.

You stated:
"Knock down, fold flat forms equal forms that will hinge and cause more problems during concrete placement and more bracing requirements."

The above is untrue. Nudura forms are hinged and fold flat for ease of transport and storage but they do not cause problems during concrete placement and they do not require more bracing as would any stand-alone form. Many contractors use Nudura and do not experience the supposed problems you mentioned.

I did not make those comments. They are quotes form others from 2007. I am basically seeking updated info.

Hi kenbw77 and welcome to this forum.

I believe it would be good to know what exactly is your intention when you say that you plan on building an ICF home. Are you physically building the walls yourself and therefore researching for the best product or are you the home owner who is looking for a contractor to build? If you are looking for a contractor, then I would agree with Lbear to look for local contractors first. My husband and I needed a contractor to build the ICF walls only. I did the same as you are doing right now and compared the brands. On top I've started calling the distributors in my area. This second step was actually equally if not more important to me in order to make a decision. Some of the distributors of my preferred brands seemed kind of lost, simply couldn't offer sufficient support for my area. If there is a brand that I would like but no contractor to find who is familiar with it, then it wouldn't help in the process. If you are an experienced builder and want to try ICF, then of course you'd have other criteria to look at and to compare.

Can't say which brand is not good. I can only say that we were happy with the brand we were building with which is Nudura, but we also were happy with our contractor who confirmed from his experience that Nudura is a good choice and obviously he knew how to work with it. I liked that it was usable from both sides which was less waste. I don't know how much it did cost per sqft because the contractor was bidding on the whole job. I also liked that I got phone support from the Nudura customer service (in Canada) when I had general questions after the wall was built. But the main reason for choosing Nudura was that the local distributor was the most responsive one in my area.

I am not sure yet if I will put up the walls or have a contractor do it. I may stack the walls and and do the rebar and then have a contractor do the cement. Did the one that you used require inside bracing? Did you have to tie the rebar overlap or was your block such that you did not have to?

Posted By kenbw77 on 23 Jun 2015 10:05 AM
I am not sure yet if I will put up the walls or have a contractor do it. I may stack the walls and and do the rebar and then have a contractor do the cement. Did the one that you used require bracing? Did you have to tie the rebar overlap or was your block such that you did not have to?

If this is your first time doing ICF it is not a "DIY" type of job. Depending on your construction skill level, if you've never built a home yourself I would not recommend taking on an ICF job yourself. At least hire a knowledgeable consultant or hire a GC to do the ICF work.

ALL pour in place concrete wall work requires bracing. Without it the walls would shift and blow-out or even worse, death or serious injury can occur without proper bracing. If you are asking if some forms require bracing then that makes me very uneasy about your skill level since bracing poured concrete goes without asking.

 

I stacked my own ICF, and built all of the window and door bucks, etc. I was lucky enough to find a contractor who taught me all of the ins and outs, rented me the necessary bracing, and then I hired him to fill the forms with concrete. The stacking/re-bar/bucks was all easy, but it was good to have a pro guiding me. I'm still not sure I would attempt filling the forms, even after seeing it done. Although I have never built a house before, I have above-average skills at building stuff.

As for forms, I used Fox, as that is what my contractor works with. I found it to be a quality product, and my walls came out extremely accurate, square, and plumb. That being said, my experience begins and ends with just one brand. I would go with what the contractor works with.

As I am just discovering the in's and out's of the process and the different blocks, I am referring to what I read about the blocks that have 6" web spacing that go up easier and quicker because they don't need some sort of additional bracing and they produce a straighter wall because of the 6" spacing instead of 8" spacing? Maybe I read that post wrong, I'll need to recheck it. Once I do determine which block to go with I do plan on doing that companies training program on putting up their blocks.

The bracing that was referred to was from a post that stated: "A six inch on center web spacing fixed form is most user friendly all around. So hurrah for Buildblock, Amvic, Reward, Greenblock, Superform But onlyl Amvic, Reward, Buildblock are reversible, a value added feature for labor and material savings. We offer our best installation prices to install projects with these forms. About every 8 inch on center system propogates the use of "in-wall bracing" also called Form-loc. This product is priced locally for $9.39 per 10 ft. section. Typically three courses of form loc is used per pour. Nudura, Arxx, Logix, and many other 8 inch web systems have added costs because it takes more money in material and labor to gain perfect finished product. Knock down, fold flat forms equal forms that will hinge and cause more problems during concrete placement and more bracing requirements."

Posted By kenbw77 on 24 Jun 2015 09:07 AM
As I am just discovering the in's and out's of the process and the different blocks, I am referring to what I read about the blocks that have 6" web spacing that go up easier and quicker because they don't need some sort of additional bracing and they produce a straighter wall because of the 6" spacing instead of 8" spacing? Maybe I read that post wrong, I'll need to recheck it. Once I do determine which block to go with I do plan on doing that companies training program on putting up their blocks.

Whether it is a 6" or 8" core block, as long as a qualified contractor is doing the work, either size will do just fine. For most residential work the 6" core will work fine. Once you get into below grade applications, multi-story commercial applications, high-load conditions, then the 8" or greater core is sometimes required.

This goes back to the engineer on record (EOR) that is engineering the home. Single story home on a slab will do fine with a 6" concrete core. A 3-story+ building with a basement that is on a sloped lot, then the EOR might call for an 8" concrete core. Either way, a qualified ICF contractor can use either block without problems.

Your ambition to take on an ICF project with zero ICF/concrete wall experience is note-worthy but I believe you are taking on more than you can handle. There are plenty of cases and stories of contractors and DIYers taking on ICF with zero experience and everything from out of square walls, blowouts, poor consolidation, hollow cavities within walls, etc, have been documented.

Issues will come up that no training class will be able to address. Only years of on-job experience and expertise will.

Do you know how to install a window and door buck and keep the area square and prevent any blowouts or leaks?

You need to install wall bracing that will anchor into the foundation slab. The steel turn buckles need to be adjusted during and after the pour since the concrete placement will cause the wall to shift.

The list goes on and on. I think it would be best if you hired a well-versed ICF contractor and let them do the job for you. You can ask them if you can help reduce some costs by helping to stack some block, keeping the job site clean or carrying or moving items around. Let the pro do the pros work.

A wood frame wall is forgiving to mistakes and can be knocked down with a hammer if it is wrong. The same cannot be said with concrete. It's not only permanent but can be very costly and deadly.

They are discussing the web spacing, which is independent of the core thickness.

Thousands of people every year DIY their own ICF. other than the pour its FAR FROM ROCKET SCIENCE...

as for my thought on the form lock you do not have to use it to get straight walls using block with 8 inch webs. It's just a way to make the 6 inch block sound better. and as for the hinge that saves you three times the cost in shipping cost

Posted By krom on 24 Jun 2015 06:48 PM

Thousands of people every year DIY their own ICF. other than the pour its FAR FROM ROCKET SCIENCE...

I doubt "thousands of people every year DIY their own ICF", I would like to some some real stats on that.

In European countries (Germany) the job of casting & placing concrete is only allowed to be done by professionals as by law. This is due to the risks and skills involved. The training to become a professional concrete caster takes 1-2 years. Full time training.

The ICF industry got a lot of black eyes due to DIYers who tried but failed to build ICF walls and it ended up doing MORE PUBLIC RELATIONS DAMAGE to ICF than hundreds of thousands of dollars in ICF marketing will ever repair.

Taken from ASK THE BUILDER.COM

Installing ICF systems is absolutely not a weekend DIY project. It requires multiple skills to successfully complete an ICF structure. For example, you need to be a decent carpenter. Window and door bucks (forms for openings) must be constructed, walls need to be adequately braced, and square, plumb, and straight corner posts must be placed for many of the systems.

Add to this rod busting (reinforcing steel placement) skills and concrete handling and you have quite a job! The point is this: Once you work with an experienced crew you could probably tackle a smaller job. But don't think that you can do a job with no problems by just reading books or instructions from manufacturers. That would be very naive.

As I mentioned, if you want to stack forms with the experienced contractor overseeing it, that's fine. Leave the rest to the professionals.

I will diffenantly be having concrete people do all the concrete work. And I am not a total amateur at construction having done remodeling work for several years. But your point is well taken regarding the concrete work.

Well i must chime in here!!!!!!
i would not usually do this but? first of all, i appreciate the comments from everyone here and there SEEMS to be some insight to be gained. However i can testify to the fact that there are alot of DIYs out there and thank goodness we are NOT LIKE Europe, thank you VERY much! not to get to fundamental, but that is the unique character of this country and i dont think we should be ashamed to celebrate that, the very idea of trying something on your own and blazing your own trail is uniquely American!! now with that said and i wholeheartedly believe that....concrete construction is in fact "Rocket Science", oops did i actually say that! yes i did , it is alot of fun building your own house using your own hands and using your own tools and then of course watching a youtube video about it maybe a couple of them, they did not have that a few years ago, so like building with wood was kind of mistake proof granted you could tear it down and start over if it was wrong..ok but now we are dealing with concrete and it does seem like fun putting the blocks together... yeah i got this! and then ....the concrete pump rolls up..extremely intimidating..everyone is always taking pictures and then the coup de gras or in english the "death blow", its the first concrete truck, now to the DIY at this point it is no longer stacking legos, they are usually calling the techinical rep for the iCf block manufacturer that said he was going to be there but something came up,(most likely a pour date)!! haha! BUT some how, that spirit of entrepreneurial ability takes over thank goodness the pumptruck operator knew you were pumping an ICF wall so he brought a 3" reducer and the concrete truck guy is talking with the pumptruck guy and they are figuring out the slump, what ? it is amazing how the whole thing comes together and the next thing you know is you have this thing in your hand and miraculously there is concrete coming out of it at the perfect cement to gravel to sand to water to air ratio, going into your wall and my goodness it is magical, disney has nothing on this experience! OR you could hire an experienced ICF guy, who about this point is yelling and screaming at the pump truck operator that the mix is wrong! not enough sand or water or something, we are professionals after all! i am going to say something that is so antithetical to the construction nomenclature i could be disbarred from the construction...thing, if they find out so, don't tell anybody! concrete is not that unforgiving! there i said it, contrary to everything you have ever heard, concrete is our friend! BOOM ! BAM! it is heavy oh yeah! but hey full figure well that use to be IN! ask the Romans, never mind about that.
so to summarize you are all correct! me and my son just changed these transmission sensors in a 1996 trail blazer, i was getting ready to buy a new transmission, but he was like "DAD we can do this" just change the sensors! i didn't even know they had them, so he showed me the youtube video and guess what , we changed them and IT WORKED!, now i know that might be an exception to the rule, but if you are going to take on your own ICF project...i salute you !God Bless you are a red blooded all American(hopefully you are a tea party republican, wow i will get some emails for that) BUT just make D**n sure you have back up..like i had already called my mechanic and said Steve..Look my son wants to do this but can you send the tow truck in case things go south? YES he said and so the adventure began! Life is not always about the destination! enjoy your build..you are a very privileged group of people who even get to try!! and to all my ICF com padres, i say be ready with the tow truck!!
Happy building and remember to enjoy the experience !!

90% of my sales are to DIY customers. So I would say the thousands number is probably not a stretch. I want what Bill is ingesting

ken: to answer your question from 23 June: Yes, we needed quite lots of bracing. Not sure about the tying of rebar overlap though - wasn't involved in building the walls, but my husband helped the contractor in each phase of the ICF built. He was never in the construction business before but "man" he did good learning each phase of building a home, although he is in his mid 50"s. If we did the ICF walls ourselves we probably would have made mistakes but I believe it would have been doable with the help of seminars and a contractor who would oversee the ICF wall built from time to time. Instead of 3 weeks (as it was done by the contractor) we would have needed few more months. Are we exhausted still building our home? Absolutely - it's an up and down, every day we work about 10 and 14 hours. We've started 13 months ago and still have a long way to go. It's a huge sacrifice and it's true what they say about marriages. You better have a good one as it is hard on the couple. Would we do it again? I really don't know about that. Good thing is, that we know what we have behind each wall and most likely we have the best quality home in our neighborhood.

In regards to rebar etc: As per our City we had to have our structural engineer come to the site for "special inspections" before each pour. We had two pours because of some high ceilings. My point is, that I would assume that the structural engineer would find mistakes if there would have been some.

Can't resist on having a message for LBear and billneagli about European construction: Europe consists of 47 countries. Each country has their own laws including laws (or no laws) for building your own home. After living there for 40 years I can speak only, but for sure for three countries including Germany. Of course there a building codes as we have here, but I couldn't find a law saying that the walls need to be done by a professional. I've seen neighbors and families building their own homes with the help of family members and friends. And to be honest, most Europeans I know are natural DIY's because often they have no other choice. My experience is that I've never lived in a country before where people would pay for services as much as here in the US. I am sure that people who are open enough and experience other countries and cultures, would say the same. So billnaegli and other DIY's in the US: Hats off to you - consider yourself as the rarity here. Most people say that "they were building their home" but actually they paid somebody to do it ;-)

Thank you everyone for your responses, it is great to hear from other peoples experiences that helps to direct some of my research and gives me some other things to look into.

Another DIY ICF installer here. This was a 34'x62' full basement and main floor ICF walls up to the roof trusses. I did everything except on the day of the pours for the basement walls and main floor walls I had my ICF distributor provide 3 experienced guys to do the pour and placement of the concrete with my assistance. This is a task that simple requires more than 1 person to complete.

I don't really see any significant difference between 6" and 8" tie spacing. With the 6" tie spacing, the ICF manufacturer may be able to get away with lower density EPS foam.

I used LiteForm X-tra knockdown forms with 2.5" thick 2# density EPS (higher density than most ICF blocks) with ties on 8" centers. This is not a folding type ICF form, but individual pieces of EPS foam and ties that you assemble as you stack the wall. I found the cost of this ICF to be significantly less than other ICF options available locally. I think my overall ICF cost was ~$2 per sq ft of wall. But it does require more time to assemble.

I did use in-wall bracing as per the recommendation of my ICF distributor, but I'm not sure it was needed. One row of in-wall bracing was installed at the mid-point of the wall and another row installed near the top of the wall. The in-wall bracing that I used has an "H" pattern welded wire with cross bars every 8" that lined up with my ICF ties. I had no issues with concrete hanging up on the bracing. Some types of in-wall bracing use a diagonal or "W" pattern welded wire and I can see where this would increase the likelihood of concrete hanging up.

The Liteform knockdown form ties don't really have a means for self securing the rebar so it needs to be tied periodically to the ties with rebar wire ties which I didn't find to be an issue with the right tool and pre-looped rebar wire ties. One advantage of the Liteform ties is that they are much smaller in cross-sectional area than most ICF block type ties and they provide little resistance to horizontal movement of the concrete during the pour and presented no issues with concrete hanging up on them. One thing I did do was to stack my horizontal rebar lap splices vertically and double tied them rather than laying them side-by-side. This prevented the rebar laps from catching concrete on the way down and potentially creating voids just beneath the rebar splices.

Bracing is a must with any type of ICF. Don't fear the bracing aspects of ICF. I built my own using 2x4s and a couple sheets of plywood. The 2x4s were later reused during construction of the interior walls. Here is a thread showing my bracing and walk board: http://www.greenbuildingweb.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/78488/afv/topic/Default.aspx